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Oskar
Joined: Jul 29, 2004 Posts: 1751 Location: Norway
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:03 am Post subject:
The cutting power of new synths |
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Last night I put my new Little Feat release in my DVD player. I've been a fan since I saw them perform at the first RockPalast festival/eurovision transmission to be shown in Norway. I've always admired the clarity of the sound on the old recordings, especially the drums and keyboards. Mr Bill Payne, the keyboard player is a treasure, thinking nothing of blending honkytonk country with impressionistic piano interludes, mixing funk with cajun, often doubling his Wurlitzer work - solos and comping - with an Oberheim 4 or 8 voice or a MiniMoog. Now we get to the reason why this isn't posted under the Reviews section. On the new DVD, "Highwire Act," the keyboard sounds, especially the synth sounds, don't seem to cut through as well as on the old live set "Waiting for Columbus." This may of course be chalked up to ageing players who can't quite cut it anymore, but that's not quite true. Seems to me there's something about the inherent "cutting power" of the new generation sounds. Bill Payne sounds off on Korg Keyboards, but I've felt that when I've seen Roland, Yamaha or Kurzweil logos the same thing applies: Synth pads and solo sounds on "modern" synths don't have the same kind of presence as the old stuff. I'll admit that the Nord Lead does it better.
Any thoughts? Are modern keyboards good enough in live situations for other than piano, organ and "sample-playing?" _________________ Where there are too many policemen, there is no liberty. Where there are too many soldiers, there is no peace. Where there are too many lawyers, there is no justice.
Lin Yutang (1895-1976) |
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 5:04 am Post subject:
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Well.. you are kinda right.. but this has more to do about the actual use of the instrument and the presets/patching than anything else.
First of all.. chords on anything else than percussive keyboard instruments as the Fender Rhodes.. and those screaming organs will always have serious problems "cutting" it in a live mix. A currendt fad is hammering away chords on mushy pads etc etc.. that does obiously not work that well.. but it is how things should sound these days. very few are doing mixes with alive sound in mind.. the new way they think loud today is by overall increasing the "loudness" on the CDs so that their product will sound as "clear as anyone else´s product.
Instrument interfaces have changed too.. but still.. the major players are sticking to those calculator pad interfaces like the did in the mid 80s. This means that most synth playing techniques from the 70s cannot be applied anymore on those big monster arranger keyboards. It is simply not enough to enter some "screaming Odyssey" preset.. you cannot play it like you should be able too. Playing the envelopes and the filters as you go.. forget about it.. no can do. Synthwise though, the Yamaha, Korg and Roland monster polka tables are REALLY good.. but very few are actually using these as true synths. I often compare this to.. well.. imagine they managed to repackage a vioin into a Nokia box.. you would know that the good stuff is in there still but you have no sensible way to get you hands on it in a live situation. Of course, the mean polka machines can be wonderful in the studio.
...And I imagine the overall instrument approach has changed.. at least within mainstream rock and pop. Affordable samplers also changed a lot.
Most use of samplers is far from inventive and musical. It is just another preset machine.
Back in the days of prog writing and arranging had some serious attention. That is why a lot of mediocre songs ended ended up as great gems. It is possible to "add some life" even without ventures into freebase and exotic sorting habits.
A big mean polka machine is in itself not a bad thing.. It is just a matter of how it is being used.
BTW: I love a lot of the early Elton John material. He had songs and a piano. Great! then the songs started to sound just like any other pop song.. and someone gave him a modern polyphonic synth.. or 200.. hard to say really if he has excesses in that department too. When he performed in Trondheim he pretty much presented a karaoke party.. the lot was hammering away in the background controlled by a midi sequencer.
On the other hand.. if we take a look at the statistics.. the most creatively destructive instrument MUST be the electric guitar. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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mosc
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Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18195 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 7:28 am Post subject:
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Like I haven't played every new synth, or every old synth, so comparing old and new is pretty difficult. Sill, of the ones I've played, I don't see anything missing in the new ones that would explain what you are hearing, a loss of lines that cut through. I think it is the musicians you are listening to, and the eveolution in the musical style. Maybe the music is just going through a more mellow, less adventurous phase. Maybe, like I said back in 1975, rock and roll is dead. |
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bachus
Joined: Feb 29, 2004 Posts: 2922 Location: Up in that tree over there.
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:43 am Post subject:
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mosc wrote: | Maybe, like I said back in 1975, rock and roll is dead. |
Personally I think the record labels just keep reanimating the long dead corps--that's why it has that smell. _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham |
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paul e.
Joined: Sep 22, 2003 Posts: 1567 Location: toronto, canada
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:38 am Post subject:
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mosc wrote: | Maybe, like I said back in 1975, rock and roll is dead. |
_________________ Spiral Recordings |
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Oskar
Joined: Jul 29, 2004 Posts: 1751 Location: Norway
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:18 am Post subject:
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bachus wrote: | mosc wrote: | Maybe, like I said back in 1975, rock and roll is dead. |
Personally I think the record labels just keep reanimating the long dead corps--that's why it has that smell. |
The smell you feel ain't decomposing flesh, it's sweat - you know the smelly, icky stuff that emanates from your skin when you work hard. It's organic and therefore PoliticallyCorrect (HUZZAH). Or to paraphrase some old movie (from when they were called "talkies"): Rock'n'roll is dead. LONG LIVE ROCK AND ROLL! _________________ Where there are too many policemen, there is no liberty. Where there are too many soldiers, there is no peace. Where there are too many lawyers, there is no justice.
Lin Yutang (1895-1976) |
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Oskar
Joined: Jul 29, 2004 Posts: 1751 Location: Norway
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:42 am Post subject:
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I think I made myself unclear, so I must try and clarify my point, which IS: I feel that "new fangled keyboards, especially from the "big 3" Yamaha, Korg and Roland neither blend in with or cut through in ensemble playing. They have lovely piano, organ and sample based sounds (the shakuhachis and suchlike), but when it comes to "synth" sounds - by which I mean sounds that may be organic, but are definitely NOT based on "real" instruments, they don't work half as well as old synths like the Prophet, the Yamaha CS60/80, the Oberheims and so forth.
Case in point: I've done a few gigs with just myself on acoustic guitar and vocals, a LOUD drummer and a keyboard player. A few months later with the same drummer and a different keys man. Both of these guys are great players, tremendous technique and a strong musicality. Furthermore, I feel a strong affinity with both - as players AND persons, so I enjoyed both gigs immensely. One of them worked with a Roland piano and a not quite, but still nice, Roland synth. The other had a DX7 as a keyboard controller for two Akai S1000s and a MIDI-retrofitted Prophet V. Like I said, they're good players, they both had good individual sounds, but the Prophet just sounded so much better, what with all the warm pads, the sync sounds and so forth.
After this, I've decided to - at some point in the not-too-distant future - try to put together a trio with a percussionist, an analog synth guy ( is Zawinul available, do you think? ) and myself, as always on acoustic guitar and vocals. _________________ Where there are too many policemen, there is no liberty. Where there are too many soldiers, there is no peace. Where there are too many lawyers, there is no justice.
Lin Yutang (1895-1976) |
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bachus
Joined: Feb 29, 2004 Posts: 2922 Location: Up in that tree over there.
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 10:37 am Post subject:
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Oskar wrote: | ...you know the smelly, icky stuff that emanates from your skin when you work hard. |
You mean like the stuff I'm dripping with right now from being out in the sun spraying and cutting the f***ing thistles in my cattle pastures? If so, yea, I know that stuff quite well, and I'm going back for more. _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham |
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mosc
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Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18195 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 10:58 am Post subject:
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It's easy to confuse the music with the instrument. Still, synths are individual instruments. For the kind of music I play, a Prophet 5 would not hack it. Neither would a MiniMoog, or a DX7. Probably one of the new big 3 synths you're talking about wouldn't either. When I play them (all of the above) they sound very conventional. Anyway, don't be surprised that different insturments fit better with different music. A Stradavarious violin might not work well as a Blue Grass fiddle. |
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 11:13 am Post subject:
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Hey Oskar... what about doing something with me and like ernst or TK in the style of Harmonia and Can.. and also have all those old style sequencers thundering? I have lotsa material in that vein too. haven´t heard it for 20 years or so though.. And you do some mean "kraut" guitar?
Anyway, you might be kinda right, but it does have a lot to do with presets and playing style.. and also with NOT using compression. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:59 pm Post subject:
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The test..
This file I have published here before. It is just a little ditty.. however.. the sounds you hear are pretty vintage and the same is the playing style.
Because the synth does not have velocity etc etc. the character is expressed using filters and .. well.. whatever. Turn up the volume. Does this have that cutting power?
The trick live is to use less chords from the keyboards if you want those classic synth sounds. Sloppy chords are awful and they mess up the PA mix. It has come to my attention that even 1/2 finger solos CAN be played on tonewheel organs ... so.. this is proof that there is still a God.. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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aquanaut
Joined: Apr 25, 2004 Posts: 313 Location: Montreal
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 1:21 pm Post subject:
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Quote: | The other had a DX7 as a keyboard controller for two Akai S1000s |
i own a s1000...i have yet to find a sampler that sounds better than an Akai. feed the unit with any synth and it will have the sound you heard. The recording engine of an old akai is unique. |
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 1:23 pm Post subject:
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I suspect it is all about how you use the gear. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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seraph
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Joined: Jun 21, 2003 Posts: 12398 Location: Firenze, Italy
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:11 pm Post subject:
Re: The cutting power of new synths |
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Oskar wrote: | Are modern keyboards good enough in live situations for other than piano, organ and "sample-playing?" |
ever tried a synth of the Waldorf Microwave family Those are nasty _________________ homepage - blog - forum - youtube
Quote: | Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer |
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:26 pm Post subject:
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Yeah.. if anything can cut the heart out of an elephant it would be a Waldorf. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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mosc
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 9:07 am Post subject:
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elektro80 wrote: | I suspect it is all about how you use the gear. |
Well, ain't that the truth. Good musicians transcend their instruments. |
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Mohoyoho
Joined: Dec 03, 2003 Posts: 1632 Location: Tennessee
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 4:35 pm Post subject:
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I am very impressed by the Ion. That is one excellent performance synth. Of course you myust plan the performance and set up the patches in advance.. but it is REALLY musical and very expressive. The ION concept is of course very different from what the G2 is about. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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mosc
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Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:50 am Post subject:
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I like the ION too, but I haven't played it very much. In the short time I did spend with it I was very impressed. It as one significant advantage over the G2- the knobs are high resolution. The G2 knobs have only 128 steps. Most of the time this is not a problem, but when controlling the pitch of oscillators over a 10 octave range, the difference is significant.
On the ION this is very smooth, on the G2 it is pretty near unusable because of the stair steps to descrete frequency steps. Some people suggest using a portamento on the G2 but that is just a band-aid that only slightly covers up the problem.
Still, for me, since I was only going to have one, I picked the G2 because it is much more powerful and flexible. I can quite easilly live with the low-res knobs. |
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Oskar
Joined: Jul 29, 2004 Posts: 1751 Location: Norway
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Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 2:04 pm Post subject:
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Thanks a lot folks! You've given me some new insights into what some of the "lesser-known" synths are good for. Although I'm a guitar player, and haven't really played keyboards in front of an audience since the D-50 was the ultimate sound source , and I mostly play solo acoustic roots-oriented stuff, I'm still keenly interested in the textural possibilities offered by synths. And samplers, of course. _________________ Where there are too many policemen, there is no liberty. Where there are too many soldiers, there is no peace. Where there are too many lawyers, there is no justice.
Lin Yutang (1895-1976) |
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