Buying/Selling DIY synths, Value and ethics.

neandrewthal · Joined: May 11, 2007 Posts: 672 Location: Canada

Has anyone ever bought or sold a DIY synth? I mean a synth you built for yourself, or someone else's homemade synth, and not something like a Blacet kit where it is the exact same a commercial product if built correctly.

Let's say I, over the course of years build a huge modular synth that cost me $10,000 in parts + labor. One day for any reason I decide to sell it, be it sudden financial trouble, getting tired of it, deciding to go a different route, buying a buchla etc..... What do you think I could get for it, considering it works properly and looks good? Would it be considered ethical to sell it if it contained modules built from non-profit schematics like those found at MFOS or Yusynth?

If you have any experiences or stories to share relating to this I'd be interested in hearing them. The only thing like this I've heard of so far is a guy on VSE who bought a modular which looked to be about equivalent to synthesizer.com 44 space system for $50!. The system was of the seller's(who is an electrical engineer) own designs, and after sitting unused for years, he and his wife were happy just for someone to come take it off their hands.

Scott Stites · Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:13 pm Post subject:

I don't think, in this instance, it makes any difference who's designs are in it. If it's something you built as a one-off, and you need to sell it, sell it for however much you can get. One would probably never be able to sell it for as much as one had in it, I imagine, especially if one counts time invested to be part of the cost.

If you went into the manufacturing business and started wholesale selling synths with other people's designs in them, that would be a different story, I suppose.

Cheers,
Scott

b-funk · Joined: Jul 17, 2007 Posts: 193 Location: Berlin

interesting question:

there´s a discussion going on over at midibox forum about a guy who builts midibox sid synths and a design by ray wilson and sells them on ebay.
after he was asked by several people to stop that he removed any hints in the auction description that those are not his own designs, but it is quite obvious where the designs come from...
so, he´s violating creative commons licences, buys all sid chips he can get and just ignores any complaints about it.
so i think this somewhat illegal and moraly... well, don´t have to tell you.

but if you want to sell something you´ve built for your own pleasure and you did use it, there´s no reason why you shouldn´t.

best wishes,

tobias.

btw: the guy who sells the midibox stuff is a member of this forum, and even asked for help to built some stuff, but i´m not sure if i should post his nick here...

blue hell · Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:43 pm Post subject:

b-funk · Joined: Jul 17, 2007 Posts: 193 Location: Berlin

exactly

elektro80 · Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:52 pm Post subject:

mandrigora · Joined: Jun 04, 2007 Posts: 51 Location: maryland

Ray directly links to people who will build Sound Labs for you on the main MFOS site, if this reflects his take on the issue...

I wonder how much they charge? Shocked

neandrewthal · Joined: May 11, 2007 Posts: 672 Location: Canada

So on the ethics side, it seems the general consensus is that selling something you built from someone's free designs is ok if it is not for profit.

On to the market value side of things, another theoretical question: You build 3 modules, lets say they are Yusynth ADSR. A few months later you realize that you are just not using the third one so you decide to sell it to fund something more useful to you. Is there any market for this sort of thing? I understand why a midibox sid has a high sale value as it is a complete self contained synth, and it's only commercial counterpart is the very limited and expensive sidstation. But what about modules? I wouldn't expect one to fetch what you put into it (especially not the labor) but are there bargain hunters out there who would be interested in buying your homemade modules, then possibly scrapping the panel and converting it to their format of choice? Have any of you done this?

mandrigora · Joined: Jun 04, 2007 Posts: 51 Location: maryland

I guess my ethical stance is completely bassakwards.

From a consumer perspective, if there is a module I don't think I can build with the information available, then I won't build it. That said, there is no doubt a market for people interested in the concept of DIY instruments but find the cost of research + labor + unforseen headaches > buying it outright from someone on Ebay. Are they missing the point? Certainly. Look at the Speak & Spell craze a few years back. How many people read the bend points online and made a small fortune selling it on Ebay?

It really should be up to the circuit designers to be offended; and oddly enough, it rarely is. The graciousness of the greats who make their designs free and accessible to the world will be repaid in kind. I will admit that I have opted not to buy the PCBs and instead rolled my own on occasion. But when my finances aren't in dire straits, and I can buy a board, then I do without hesitation.

For me selling things I've built are like selling my children. Too much burn-blisters, sweat, and beers to let them go.

Thomas Henry · Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:51 pm Post subject:

My favorite episode concerns the synth I built a couple decades ago. Then I went broke and sold it to someone in New York for a pittance. After a decent interval, it showed up on Ebay with the claim it was a prototype made by Moog!

Anyone who saw my articles in Polyphony would have recognized it immediately. I mean, who ever heard of Moog using yellow panels with chicken-beak pointer knobs!

Talk about "value-added"!

Thomas Henry

mandrigora · Joined: Jun 04, 2007 Posts: 51 Location: maryland

Oh...my...god....

You mean this weird yellow pointy-knobbed prototype thing I bought off the bay isn't a Moog !?tm!?(c)?

Well Mr Henry. I want a refund.

Laughing

neandrewthal · Joined: May 11, 2007 Posts: 672 Location: Canada

Evan · Joined: Aug 04, 2007 Posts: 35 Location: Australia

Currently on eBay are the following:

A MFOS Soundlab, built by the seller (or so the claim is): http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220153018080&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=012

A 4x4 DIY sequencer, designed and built by the same guy as above: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220153023114&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=012

A CGS Sequencer, built by the seller: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260162886298&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=016

And just ended, a CGS Dual LFO: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250165990704&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=015

Nosferatu · Joined: Jul 27, 2007 Posts: 234 Location: Planet Rock.

krisp14u · Joined: Nov 11, 2006 Posts: 206 Location: uk

Are my ethics wrong?
I see nothing wrong with any of the eBay listings ?
I've sold modules on eBay that I have built and will do again if the need arises I've also bought items and the CGS Sequencer, looks nice I might have a punt Smile

also I've built modules for other people that don't have the time or the knowledge to DIY them selves is this wrong ?
just my 2 bob

EdisonRex · Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:16 am Post subject:

Building someone's kits for them isn't wrong. There are plenty of musicians (some in this community even) who don't/can't build their own modules and hire more experienced builders.

I think the main issue I hear coming up is the issue of someone going into business marketing other people's designs, without either permission or attribution. Some designers quite famously do not want their designs commercially appropriated. I don't need to give examples as they are quite capable of reading this and speaking for themselves.

I see absolutely no problem with selling your own modular, if you need/want to. It's yours to sell. It gets different when you decide to build them for a living, but even then, that's an ethical position with some very specific boundaries.

zipzap · Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:13 am Post subject:

For me there´s another question. Is it legal to sell an homemade electronic instrument?
Must be different in some countries, but i was told that here in germany you can get into deep trouble. If you built it yourself you have to pay taxes, guarantee that it´ll work for 2 years, pay in advance for the recycling of a broken unit, stuff like that.
If something goes on fire you´ll never be happy again...
I would love to make smaal series of my own designs, but i´m really not sure what legal stuff has to be considered...

Scott Stites · Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:23 am Post subject:

Nice to see you back, Zipper Very Happy

zipzap · Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:58 am Post subject:

Thanks! Nice to be back!
Well, i was never really away, but there were so many things, friends, summer, moving, not having internet, jobs, university...
But the soldering iron is getting hot again!

mosc · Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:31 pm Post subject:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but, except for patents, there is no legal protection for a circuit design. So, if a design is publicly posted, it becomes part of the public domain. It may not be ethical to sell someones design, but it seems to be legal. This is a bit inconsistent from programs, music, writing, graphical design and others.

Circuit board layouts is something else. These can be copyrighted and rights reserved. Be sure to put a copyright notice on your layouts if you want to ever take legal recourse. Even if you don't expect to take legal action, it's a good idea.

Using someone's name with out permission is a different matter. Names are defacto trade marks. If you use your name in business - and it has not been used by someone else previously in the same business activity - then you have trade mark rights to it, even if you haven't registered your name as a trademark. Still, it's best to register your name as a trademark if you intend to defend it.

Conversely, if you let your name be used in commerce by someone else and you don't attempt to stop it though proper notice or legal action, you might end up losing the rights to you own name in this area of business activity. So, I think it is prudent if you are a designer and someone is selling products as your designs that you ask them to stop, or you give them rights to your name for limited use. Doing neither may be unwise. Just my opinion - I'm not a lawyer.

So, legally, and even ethically, it may be better to sell products designed by someone without giving credit or identifying the designer. Shocked

Consider, I sell a product designed by, say John Doe, and give him credit. If I use bad components or poor assembly this product will speak badly of John Doe. John might be better of if I didn't use his name. In some cases giving him credit could be harmful to his reputation. These things aren't always black and white.

What about the ethics of selling someone elses design for profit. I think it is legal as stated before (we are talking the design, not the circuit board layouts). Personally, I think one should ask for permission and offer some compensation. It is decent and respectful, even if it isn't legally required.

But, I'm very concerned about people getting on a public forum, like this one, and bad mouthing someone else for doing something they think is shady. If you see illegal activity, then contact the appropriate legal authority. If you think it is unethical, then that's your opinion, maybe shared by many others, maybe it is correct, but still it is opinion. Please don't use electro-music.com to smear someone based on your own ideas, even if your intentions are pure. I find that very distasteful and inappropriate.

EdisonRex · Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject:

b-funk · Joined: Jul 17, 2007 Posts: 193 Location: Berlin

hi there,

it´s very difficult to interpret all the patent and copyright laws, but as i understand creative commons, it is illegal to take someone´s work and sell it, even if you mention the original creator - unless you are allowed to.
that´s not the case here, and don´t forget that the midibox project is mainly the mios software and the applications software.
it´s clearly stated on the midibox site that you are allowed to use and modify the software and pcb layouts for your own purposes, but you are NOT allowed to use them in any commercial way, unless you are allowed to.
so it is illegal and ethically wrong - thorsten could earn lots of money if he had decided to sell his midiboxes, but thank god (and thorsten, of course) he decided to make them available AND give support.
so, i think it´s ok, if not necessary to mention when someone violates his rights. such behaviour kills open source projects, and we don´t want that!!!

best wishes,

tobias.

Dave Kendall · Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:53 pm Post subject:

The bottom line if understand it correctly, according to Don Lancaster's writings on patents is; when you have a good original idea, build the device and sell as many as the market can bear quickly. Don't bother with probably indefensible patents. Chances are, no-one else will bother to compete if you get there first, and the whole messy business of litigation is avoided.

There was an interesting thread on the sdiy list a couple of months or so ago, in which one regular contributor (sorry, but can't remember who) pointed out from his own experience the real life inequality of patent law for the little guy.

The Poster had been summoned as an expert witness in a electronics patent infringement case, and the experience had changed his opinion for the worse about the fairness of the system.
From memory, as a summary, the way it worked was;

1/ Small firm produces device that infringes Large firm's patent.
Large firm hammers Small firm, and acquires some or all of their assets, carrying on producing the device without missing a beat.
2/ Large firm produces device infringing Small firm's patent. Small firm sues Large firm. Large firm keeps it going long enough in court so that Small firm goes under due to legal fees. Large firm then buys small firm's liquidated assets for a song, and carries on.
3/ Large firm infringes other Large firm's patent. The suits meet up, licence bits of soft/hardware from each other, then go for lunch.

Personally, I've trusted people from this forum, and had great experiences, but this forum is very special.
It has serious knowledge and experience, is interesting, fun, and above all is pretty mellow. A nice mix. Much respect to Howard and the guys steering it for this.

cheers,

Dave

Dave Kendall · Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:00 pm Post subject:

Regarding creative commons, an interesting take on it here

cheers,

Dave

blue hell · Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:02 pm Post subject: