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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
Dim D
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What "chipset" would you like to see in a Dim D PCB
Original chips. They are still out there.
76%
 76%  [ 38 ]
Low voltage BBDs - easier to get, probably more noisy. Takes longer to design.
6%
 6%  [ 3 ]
Make a PCB that allows both options. Will be more expensive (more PCB area required!), and will take the longest to design.
14%
 14%  [ 7 ]
Not interested. (Who needs a Dim D? And isn't there another Dim D project on the way?!)
4%
 4%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 50

Author Message
lexvortex



Joined: May 14, 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 9:43 pm    Post subject: Calibration of DimD Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi JH,

I just powered up my DimD and it seems to function OK Smile How should I calibrate this? There are a number of trim pots but I didn't see any instructions on what to do with them. Right now I've got them all set to mid point.

Thanks,
Dave
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 12:54 am    Post subject: Re: Calibration of DimD Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

lexvortex wrote:
Hi JH,

I just powered up my DimD and it seems to function OK Smile How should I calibrate this? There are a number of trim pots but I didn't see any instructions on what to do with them. Right now I've got them all set to mid point.

Thanks,
Dave


http://www.jhaible.de/subtle_chorus/subtle_chorus_main_board_sch_dwg2.pdf

CMR means common mode rejection - put trimmers in position where CMR is best. (Signal applied to positive and negative input.)

http://www.jhaible.de/subtle_chorus/jh_subtle_chorus_BBD_Board_sch_page1.pdf

R15 and R82 set for symmetrical clipping of BBD.

R24 and R65 set for best clock suppression

http://www.jhaible.de/subtle_chorus/subtle_chorus_main_board_sch_dwg1.pdf

Tau Bias: set by ear for pleasant sound in Dim T mode.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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numbertalk



Joined: May 05, 2008
Posts: 980
Location: Austin, TX
Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 7:36 am    Post subject: Re: Calibration of DimD Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is moving up in my build queue and I've been wondering about the calibration process as well.

jhaible wrote:
CMR means common mode rejection - put trimmers in position where CMR is best. (Signal applied to positive and negative input.)


Could you explain a little more what exactly Common Mode Rejection is and how we measure this exactly, and what we're ideally looking for? Also where on the board do we put our probes to measure?

[quote="jhaible]R15 and R82 set for symmetrical clipping of BBD.[/quote]

Is this where we, for example, feed in a sine wave and adjust for the most amplitude with no clipping? What are the test points we should take our measurements from?

jhaible wrote:
R24 and R65 set for best clock suppression


How do we measure this exactly - what are we looking for and where on the board do we measure this (test point)?

Thanks!
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 9:07 am    Post subject: Re: Calibration of DimD Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

CMR: On the balanced input, feed the same signal to both input wires (the "positive" and the "negative" polarity). Ideally, there should be no signal at the output of the input amplifier. In paractice, set the trimmer to the position where the remaining signal is at its minimum.

Clock suppression: After the first opamp, following the BBD.
Ideally: no high frequency signal from BBD clock.
In practice, set trimmer such that the remaining HF signal is minimal.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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numbertalk



Joined: May 05, 2008
Posts: 980
Location: Austin, TX
Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 10:19 am    Post subject: Re: Calibration of DimD Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
CMR: On the balanced input, feed the same signal to both input wires (the "positive" and the "negative" polarity). Ideally, there should be no signal at the output of the input amplifier. In paractice, set the trimmer to the position where the remaining signal is at its minimum.


If we're not planning to use the balanced input does this stillt need to be set?

jhaible wrote:
Clock suppression: After the first opamp, following the BBD.
Ideally: no high frequency signal from BBD clock.
In practice, set trimmer such that the remaining HF signal is minimal.


So this is with no input or does that not matter - we're just looking at the clock signal, right? How do we distinguish "HF signal"? Will this be the presence of *any* signal or will the trimmer filter out the HF signal and will we see a lower frequency signal present?

Thanks!
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
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Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:34 am    Post subject: Re: Calibration of DimD Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

numbertalk wrote:

If we're not planning to use the balanced input does this stillt need to be set?


For unbalnced signals, you can just ignore the trimmer.

Quote:

So this is with no input or does that not matter - we're just looking at the clock signal, right? How do we distinguish "HF signal"? Will this be the presence of *any* signal or will the trimmer filter out the HF signal and will we see a lower frequency signal present?


No signal applied, just looking for remnants of the clock.
You know it as HF by measuring the period on the oscilloscope.
if you don't have a scope, don't worry. Just leave these trimpots in mid position. Many BBD devices don't use a trimpot for this at all.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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numbertalk



Joined: May 05, 2008
Posts: 980
Location: Austin, TX
Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Calibration of DimD Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
No signal applied, just looking for remnants of the clock.
You know it as HF by measuring the period on the oscilloscope.
if you don't have a scope, don't worry. Just leave these trimpots in mid position. Many BBD devices don't use a trimpot for this at all.


I do have a scope. So I would just trim for the lowest frequency of this signal it sounds like (in other words I will see it slow down rather than diminish as I trim)?

Thanks!
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
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Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Calibration of DimD Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

numbertalk wrote:
jhaible wrote:
No signal applied, just looking for remnants of the clock.
You know it as HF by measuring the period on the oscilloscope.
if you don't have a scope, don't worry. Just leave these trimpots in mid position. Many BBD devices don't use a trimpot for this at all.


I do have a scope. So I would just trim for the lowest frequency of this signal it sounds like (in other words I will see it slow down rather than diminish as I trim)?

Thanks!


Lowest Level, not lowest frequency.
Put the probe on the wiper of the trimmer first, and you see the offender, unfiltered. There shouldn't be much of it after the first opamp - but if you see something, the trimmer will minimize it. You won't *hear* it, anyway.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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numbertalk



Joined: May 05, 2008
Posts: 980
Location: Austin, TX
Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks!
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JoeMorris



Joined: Apr 26, 2009
Posts: 160
Location: Brighton

PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

After successful triple chorus and tau builds, the inevitable has struck and I have hit a stumbling block - my dim d build doesnt make a sound when I plug it in......
ouch.
Any hints for a novice troubleshooter?
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JoeMorris



Joined: Apr 26, 2009
Posts: 160
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ive checked all the component positions and polarity and everything checks out.... except one of the tl072s on the main board was in the wrong way round which ive now sorted (could this have damaged the chip?). But still no sound, even in bypass mode. the led does turn on, however. Where can I start looking for suitable values for testing purposes? I couldnt get the 27nf caps on the main board, so I soldered in 22nf and 4.7nf into the same holes, is this cool?
Any pointers would be massively appreciated, Im a bit lost on where to start. I only have a multimeter, no scope unfortunately.
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JoeMorris wrote:
.. except one of the tl072s on the main board was in the wrong way round which ive now sorted (could this have damaged the chip?).


Definitely, yes.
Replace opamp, check supply voltages at every chip (pins. see schematics).
Then trace signal path with a scope from input to output - the usual procedure.

JH.

(just back from Italy)

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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JoeMorris



Joined: Apr 26, 2009
Posts: 160
Location: Brighton

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for the reply JH...
I will try this. Unfortunately I dont have a scope... will this ruin my chances of diagnosis? Or is there any other way..?
Joe
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ognam



Joined: May 04, 2009
Posts: 7
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello everybody. I´m on the way for my Dim D Smile

I have nearly every parts, but I don´t know where to get the BBD-Stuff...

I still need:

-MN3007
-MC14069UB
-NE 570N
-LM13600

I live in Berlin. Where can I get this stuff here in Germeny?

And what about HA1457W? What is the difference between using this and TL071/72 like the footprints on the pcb are saying?

Thanks for this awsome project!

Jonas
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JoeMorris wrote:
Thanks for the reply JH...
I will try this. Unfortunately I dont have a scope... will this ruin my chances of diagnosis? Or is there any other way..?
Joe


I hate to say this, but a scope really *is* helpful here. Maybe you have a friend with a scope locally, who will trace signals with you?

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ognam wrote:
Hello everybody. I´m on the way for my Dim D Smile

I have nearly every parts, but I don´t know where to get the BBD-Stuff...

I still need:

-MN3007
-MC14069UB
-NE 570N
-LM13600

I live in Berlin. Where can I get this stuff here in Germeny?

And what about HA1457W? What is the difference between using this and TL071/72 like the footprints on the pcb are saying?

Thanks for this awsome project!

Jonas


LM13600 can be replaced with LM13700. Should be available at www.reichelt.de . Same for MC14069 ("MOS4069" should be the Reichelt number.)

The rest is NOS only. I think Tobias provides kits that include these chips (Tobias?). And there are special music electronics dealers like vintageplanet in NL and small bear in the USA.

HA1457? - I don't hear a difference; others might.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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numbertalk



Joined: May 05, 2008
Posts: 980
Location: Austin, TX
Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:25 am    Post subject:
Subject description: XLR jacks from Mouser?
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If I wanted to include balanced inputs and outputs for my Dim-TD could anyone give me a Mouser part # or a link to what I'd want exactly from a U.S. supplier? Would this one work:

http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuCv89HBVkAk8rw6%252bQLRk9c

If so, any concerns with how these are mounted to the panel or enclosure? Are they usually threaded on the back and take a nut inside the unit that fastens against the back of the panel?

Thanks!
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, I got the XLR jacks figured out, but Juergen, could you tell me if heat sinks I have left over extra from the Krautrock Phaser project would also fit the footprint on the Main Board for this project?

Also, on the BOM for the BBD Board, there's a section of components called just "Capacitors", between the polyester section and the ceramic section. Based on the values it seems these could/should be ceramic (150pf, 330pf for example) but wanted to make sure before I ordered parts.

Thanks!
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JoeMorris



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

my understanding is that these shouldnt be ceramic, but dont take my word for it.
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JoeMorris wrote:
my understanding is that these shouldnt be ceramic, but dont take my word for it.


I thought so too but wasn't seeing film caps with some of those values.

Also regarding heat sinks I finally found my stash of ones I used on the compact phasing so will see how those fit here.

Thanks.
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

numbertalk wrote:
JoeMorris wrote:
my understanding is that these shouldnt be ceramic, but dont take my word for it.


I thought so too but wasn't seeing film caps with some of those values.

Also regarding heat sinks I finally found my stash of ones I used on the compact phasing so will see how those fit here.

Thanks.


Just try them and then feel if they don't get too hot. (Depends on many factors, mainly on the voltage pre-regulator, and air circulation.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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numbertalk



Joined: May 05, 2008
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Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks JH. I found some polyesters in these values, so long as 50V is ok for these particular caps.

jhaible wrote:
numbertalk wrote:
JoeMorris wrote:
my understanding is that these shouldnt be ceramic, but dont take my word for it.


I thought so too but wasn't seeing film caps with some of those values.

Also regarding heat sinks I finally found my stash of ones I used on the compact phasing so will see how those fit here.

Thanks.


Just try them and then feel if they don't get too hot. (Depends on many factors, mainly on the voltage pre-regulator, and air circulation.

JH.
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

50V is plenty.

JH.

numbertalk wrote:
Thanks JH. I found some polyesters in these values, so long as 50V is ok for these particular caps.

jhaible wrote:
numbertalk wrote:
JoeMorris wrote:
my understanding is that these shouldnt be ceramic, but dont take my word for it.


I thought so too but wasn't seeing film caps with some of those values.

Also regarding heat sinks I finally found my stash of ones I used on the compact phasing so will see how those fit here.

Thanks.


Just try them and then feel if they don't get too hot. (Depends on many factors, mainly on the voltage pre-regulator, and air circulation.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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numbertalk



Joined: May 05, 2008
Posts: 980
Location: Austin, TX
Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Great thanks!

jhaible wrote:
50V is plenty.

JH.

numbertalk wrote:
Thanks JH. I found some polyesters in these values, so long as 50V is ok for these particular caps.

jhaible wrote:
numbertalk wrote:
JoeMorris wrote:
my understanding is that these shouldnt be ceramic, but dont take my word for it.


I thought so too but wasn't seeing film caps with some of those values.

Also regarding heat sinks I finally found my stash of ones I used on the compact phasing so will see how those fit here.

Thanks.


Just try them and then feel if they don't get too hot. (Depends on many factors, mainly on the voltage pre-regulator, and air circulation.

JH.
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numbertalk



Joined: May 05, 2008
Posts: 980
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi JH,

The only trimmer I don't see any instructions on how to calibrate is the LFO Offs trimmer on the BBD board - what is this one exactly and how is this one set?

Thanks!
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