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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » NM Classic (NM1 or G1)
Cv Sequencer output from the modular g1
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avantronica



Joined: Sep 07, 2008
Posts: 17
Location: old scotia

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

varice wrote:
avantronica wrote:
...the voltages max out for me at 1.8 +/- on both the keys and mm...

That seems to be too low. Are you sure that you are getting the maximum patch signal level to the output?

I found a note where I recorded several years ago that my G1 Rack could produce about 6.4 volts peak-to-peak before clipping.



It's definitely maxed out gain wise in the patches i've tried, it just truncates the signal after you add more gain in - consistently approx +/- 1.8 volts - something reported by someone else on muffs too !!
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

varice wrote:
avantronica wrote:
...the voltages max out for me at 1.8 +/- on both the keys and mm...

That seems to be too low. Are you sure that you are getting the maximum patch signal level to the output?

I found a note where I recorded several years ago that my G1 Rack could produce about 6.4 volts peak-to-peak before clipping.


I am getting -1884 to +1844 mV for DC (too) on my NM Classic keys version.

However both can be true, the headphone out may use bootstrapping, which for AC could give it a wider voltage swing.

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varice



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh – that may be true if you are only amplifying the signal level within the patch. IIRC, you can only get a maximum of +/- 256 “Clavia units” (4X +/- 64 units) to the Output module without clipping. But, the output bus has some extra headroom and can allow patches with more than one Output module set to max. I’m fairly certain that I used more than one Output module to push the output bus to its max.

The same (maximum of +/- 256 “Clavia units” to the Output module) is true for the G2, but the G2 Output module has a +6dB pad switch that allows you to boost the signal level on the output bus to near the clipping level of the system.

[EDIT: to correct spelling]

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Last edited by varice on Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ok, you are right, by upping the voice count or using more output modules the range becomes [-3.72V, +3.72V]
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avantronica



Joined: Sep 07, 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Agreed - this is the only viable route i found - it doesn't work beyond sending to the same out more than twice though

Big usefulness improvement though

Any other nuances we should know about ?!?


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varice



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

avantronica wrote:
...Any other nuances we should know about ?!?

No, I don’t think I have any other G1 secrets to reveal… Smile

What about the polarity of the G1 headphone output? The G2 output is inverted (I don’t have my G1 Rack or Micro in the studio, so I can’t check any of this myself).

Thanks for the picture – good patching example and info about which output bus is connected to the tip and ring for the headphone plug.

[EDIT: to correct spelling]

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Last edited by varice on Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dashwood



Joined: Feb 01, 2014
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Location: London

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Fellas,

Just signed up Wink

As a G1 owner, these developments really interest me.

klangumsetzer wrote:
If you own for example the Moog CP-251 you can use the inbuilt attenuators to adjust the voltage.


I'm fairly new to this whole CV business - Would what klangumsetzer suggests - boosting the voltage level externally - allow for accurate tracking ?

Cheers
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

NM Classic is inverted too.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

welcome dashwood

With a voltage swing > 6V you would have 6 octaves without any signal treatment ... not sure how linear it would be .. also not sure how many bits there are, but at least 15 usable ones I'd guess or > 30,000 values, so about 500 steps / Volt -> 500 steps / octave or one step would be about 2.4 cent .. which would be pretty accurate.

All this is speculative of course Rolling Eyes

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varice



Joined: Dec 29, 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Clavia specs state that the G1 uses 18 bit linear DACs at 96 kHz sampling frequency for the output signals.

http://www.clavia.se/products/discontinued/nordmodular/technical.htm

One glaring omission though. Clavia failed to mention that the headphone output is capable of passing DC signal levels Exclamation Laughing

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dashwood



Joined: Feb 01, 2014
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Appreciate the welcome Blue Hell ! beer

Blue Hell wrote:
:
With a voltage swing > 6V you would have 6 octaves without any signal treatment ... not sure how linear it would be .. also not sure how many bits there are, but at least 15 usable ones I'd guess or > 30,000 values, so about 500 steps / Volt -> 500 steps / octave or one step would be about 2.4 cent .. which would be pretty accurate.

All this is speculative of course Rolling Eyes


2.4 cents resolution is pretty good..and that was going to be my next question the + - thing..so yeah 6 octaves..nice !

Will be following developments closely Shocked

Big thanks !
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varice



Joined: Dec 29, 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dashwood wrote:
Hey Fellas,

Just signed up Wink

Hello dashwood. Welcome to the electro-music forum Exclamation

dashwood wrote:
As a G1 owner, these developments really interest me.

klangumsetzer wrote:
If you own for example the Moog CP-251 you can use the inbuilt attenuators to adjust the voltage.


I'm fairly new to this whole CV business - Would what klangumsetzer suggests - boosting the voltage level externally - allow for accurate tracking ?

Cheers

Yes, the 4 Input Mixer of the Moog CP-251 can be used to amplify and scale the DC voltage level if you need more range than the G1 can produce, but it appears to be limited to a max output range of +/- 5V. The Attenuator controls only reduce the signal level, and of course, you can always reduce the signal level within the G1 patch if necessary.

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dashwood



Joined: Feb 01, 2014
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Varice ...thanks mate,nice to be here.

Thanks for info - sorry not quite clear - You're saying that it's limited to +/- 5V without amplifying..or regardless?

Thanks,

Dash

varice wrote:
dashwood wrote:
Hey Fellas,

Just signed up Wink

Hello dashwood. Welcome to the electro-music forum Exclamation

dashwood wrote:
As a G1 owner, these developments really interest me.

klangumsetzer wrote:
If you own for example the Moog CP-251 you can use the inbuilt attenuators to adjust the voltage.


I'm fairly new to this whole CV business - Would what klangumsetzer suggests - boosting the voltage level externally - allow for accurate tracking ?

Cheers

Yes, the 4 Input Mixer of the Moog CP-251 can be used to amplify and scale the DC voltage level if you need more range than the G1 can produce, but it appears to be limited to a max output range of +/- 5V. The Attenuator controls only reduce the signal level, and of course, you can always reduce the signal level within the G1 patch if necessary.
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varice



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

According to the specs in the Moog CP-251 Manual, the Mixer section maximum output range is +/- 5VDC, so in that case, you could only boost the G1 output signal to +/- 5VDC. If you need a greater signal range than that, you would need to use some other DC amplifier. I hope that explaination of the issue is a bit more clear, but feel free to ask again if I have failed.
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dashwood



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ah gotcha !..so 5v boosted..Cool !

Thanks for clearing that up.

varice wrote:
According to the specs in the Moog CP-251 Manual, the Mixer section maximum output range is +/- 5VDC, so in that case, you could only boost the G1 output signal to +/- 5VDC. If you need a greater signal range than that, you would need to use some other DC amplifier. I hope that explaination of the issue is a bit more clear, but feel free to ask again if I have failed.
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klangumsetzer



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sorry for the confusion: To boost the signal I use the CP-251 in combination with the powered EP-2 expression pedal.
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Last edited by klangumsetzer on Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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varice



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dashwood wrote:

klangumsetzer wrote:
If you own for example the Moog CP-251 you can use the inbuilt attenuators to adjust the voltage.


I'm fairly new to this whole CV business - Would what klangumsetzer suggests - boosting the voltage level externally - allow for accurate tracking ?

I wonder if the confusion is caused by us having a different definition of what “boosting” a DC signal means.

dashwood, when you ask if you could boost the signal, what is the result that you want; to amplify the range from like -3V/+3V to -5V/+5V; or to offset (shift) the range up from like -3V/+3V to 0V/+6V? or something else?

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dashwood



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
sorry for the confusion: To boost the signal I use the CP-251 in compination with the powered EP-2 expression pedal.


Yep,thanks klangumsetzer, so does the EP2 boost the signal further..or are you just using it as a controller?

More to the point how have you found using CV from G1 in general !?..I'd be v interested to hear your experience...any issues?..how accurate and consistent have you found the tracking?


Quote:

I wonder if the confusion is caused by us having a different definition of what “boosting” a DC signal means.

dashwood, when you ask if you could boost the signal, what is the result that you want; to amplify the range from like -3V/+3V to -5V/+5V; or to offset (shift) the range up from like -3V/+3V to 0V/+6V? or something else?


Thanks varice, well my original question was regarding amplifying the range and that's clear now, but funnily enough the way you responded initially re:the CP251 bought *that* question to mind too !

How would one go about doing that?..I would guess in the G1..no?
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klangumsetzer



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

the moog ep-2 pedal can boost the voltage from 0-5 V when it is plugged into any of the powered inputs of the cp-251.

i have not used the g1 yet as cv scource. i own a little phatty with cv output mod which i use in conjuction with 2 cp-251, ep-2 and three moogerfoogers.

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varice



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dashwood wrote:
Quote:

I wonder if the confusion is caused by us having a different definition of what “boosting” a DC signal means.

dashwood, when you ask if you could boost the signal, what is the result that you want; to amplify the range from like -3V/+3V to -5V/+5V; or to offset (shift) the range up from like -3V/+3V to 0V/+6V? or something else?


Thanks varice, well my original question was regarding amplifying the range and that's clear now...

O.K. That’s good. My reply to your question about the CP-251 was mainly to make the point that yes it can amplify the G1 output range, but only by a small amount (only to a maximum range of -5V to +5V according to the manual).

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dashwood



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
O.K. That’s good. My reply to your question about the CP-251 was mainly to make the point that yes it can amplify the G1 output range, but only by a small amount (only to a maximum range of -5V to +5V according to the manual).


Yep,thanks Varice...but..that's still 10 octaves right?!

Quote:
the moog ep-2 pedal can boost the voltage from 0-5 V when it is plugged into any of the powered inputs of the cp-251.

i have not used the g1 yet as cv scource. i own a little phatty with cv output mod which i use in conjuction with 2 cp-251, ep-2 and three moogerfoogers.


Ok,thanks for the info Klang.

Has anyone tried to use it as a serious CV source yet?..really interested to hear experiences.
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varice



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dashwood wrote:
Quote:
O.K. That’s good. My reply to your question about the CP-251 was mainly to make the point that yes it can amplify the G1 output range, but only by a small amount (only to a maximum range of -5V to +5V according to the manual).


Yep,thanks Varice...but..that's still 10 octaves right?!...

Yes of course, if your VCO(s) are 1V/octave and can use a bipolar pitch CV of -5V to +5V.

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G2DREAM



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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well i am amused!!!
The whole subject is fffffascinating!!!!
I can send G1 and G2 headphone CV signals to my Doepfer machine!!!!

Shocked Shocked Shocked
and
Laughing Laughing Laughing

Thank you!
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ersatzplanet



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I haven't read this thread in a while and seeing the latest post have to add that it is pretty trivial to make a fixed gain amplifier to boost the headphone output. You could also add offset to make it all positive (useful for making gate or clock signals).

I would think if resolution + range was the most important thing to you, you cold invert and combine both the left and right outs into one signal and make a patch to take advantage of that, but it seems the resolution seems good enough for most uses.

Modules on the modular could easily compensate for levels and quantize them to make it work easier. You could use the audio outs and envelope follow them on the modular and make less critical CVs if needed.

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