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Ring Modulator for the Sound Lab
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vintage



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:12 am    Post subject: Ring Modulator for the Sound Lab Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi!

Is there a Ring Modulator circuit that fits the Sound Lab as well as the Sample & Hold do?

Thanks!
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seraph
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi vintage
welcome to electro-music.com Very Happy I can't answer your question, I hope someone else will Wink

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adhdboy



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi

Sorry but there is not currently a ring modulator. But I have some AD633 chips waiting in the wings for when I have a spare moment to get one going. Check out the AD633 and maybe you'll get some ideas.

Cheers

ADHDBOY

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Photon



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There is a cool looking ring modulator based around the AD633 here:

http://m.bareille.free.fr/modular1/warp633/warp633.htm

It runs on +/- 12 v. I wonder if it would be difficult to implement into the Sound Lab?

-peter
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vintage



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I found the VCS3 ringmod schematic here:

http://members.tripod.com/urekarm/synth/download.html
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adrianopy2qa



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Adhdboy, Photon, Seraph and Vintage

I have a RM schematic photocopies (3 pages) using the MC1496 along with the pcb. I'll have to scan it and send to you via email if you want.

Regards

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mosc
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

welcome adrianopy2qa

You can post images here as attachments. Please try to reduce them in size as much as possible while still readable.

I've built a lot of ring modulator circuits. The big difficulty with these is balancing them. The AD chips with laser trimming have a huge advantage in this department. You don't need to add trim pots and they never go out of adjustment. They are a bit more expensive, but in my opinion, worth the expense.

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adrianopy2qa



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Mosc,

I've never built a RM before, I didn't know about this tricky adjustments. I want to build this particulary RM with the MC1496 and use it with the Sound Lab and the WP-20 outputs. I'm not very familiar with RM theory, but reading the article from the schematics you can like "mix and modulate" 2 diferents sources in my case the Sound Lab with the WP-20 and get a different sound. I'll scan the schematics and follow your instructions to attach the files otherwise I'll be glad to send via email the images to you if you don't mind. The schematics are from a old electronic magazine called Elektor I think.

Rgds

Adriano

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mosc
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If you look at Vintage's post just up in this topic you'll find a link to the VCS3 schematics that use the MC1496.

On second thought, you shouldn't post schematics here that are of copyrighted circuits.

If you look at the VCS3 Ring Mod schematics, you'll see two trim pots (100K) under the diff pair. That's what you don't have in a AD chip circuit.

There are lots of articles about ring modulation on the net. Here's just one:
http://www.harmony-central.com/Effects/Articles/Ring_Modulation/

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vintage



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm thinking on configuring the ring modulator like this:

- Main wave, VCO2
- Mixed with: VCO1 or LFO (switch to choose)

OUTPUT:
- IN of the Filter.

Any suggestions?
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: Ring Modulator for the Sound Lab Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

vintage wrote:
Hi!

Is there a Ring Modulator circuit that fits the Sound Lab as well as the Sample & Hold do?

Thanks!


Hi I'm new here- I've just totally fallen in love with the MicroSynth (ending a 30-year old lust with the EMS vcs3- there's no way I'm paying £2k++ for not a lot of electronics) so here's my first contribution to this list. I know this threads a bit old (6 weeks?) but I was hunting around on the net the other day for a really cheap ringmodulator (ala MS20/ Arp Odyssey) found this (and therefore should share the link around!);

http://www.analog-synth.de/synths/ringmod/digital_ringmodulator.htm

It's the circuit at the bottom of the page that really floats my boat- check out the mp3's as well- NICE! It will take all the VCO/LFO signals and best of all the current drain sould be minimal (unlike the MC1496?).

I haven't ordered a Minisynth board yet, but when I do I'm gonna do this mod as soon as it gets pieced together. If anyone beats me to it, please do post me the results!!

Tom :-) (Formerly known as 'terryfunken' on the code404/nordmodular list- for all those who may have known? :)))
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 9:08 am    Post subject: Re: Ring Modulator for the Sound Lab Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:


Tom :-) (Formerly known as 'terryfunken' on the code404/nordmodular list- for all those who may have known? :)))


Hey Tom, welcome at EM, good to see you here !

jan.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

These digital ring modulators are fun and make nice noises, but they aren't really ring modulators. The AD633 is a much better choice for the classic ring modulator.

I'm not arguing one way or the other, but I just want to make sure people don't think that you can hook up some logic gates and get an analog multiplier circuit.

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
The AD633 is a much better choice for the classic ring modulator.


I read this thread just now. Mosc is correct. I recommend that one too. The AD633JN is good.
http://www.analog.com/en/prod/0%2C2877%2CAD633%2C00.html


AD633.PDF
 Description:
PDF datasheet with examples

Download
 Filename:  AD633.PDF
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 1:58 am    Post subject: Re: Ring Modulator for the Sound Lab Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
v-un-v wrote:


Tom :-) (Formerly known as 'terryfunken' on the code404/nordmodular list- for all those who may have known? :)))


Hey Tom, welcome at EM, good to see you here !

jan.


JAN!!! Now I feel I'm at home :))) I'll never (at this rate anyway) be able to afford a G2 but the prophet Ray Wilson has helped me see the light again ;)

The Analog Devices RM looks good too. I just like things that sound really dirty (I was gonna say shit but that would play down how good the Sound-Lab sounds like) and I like the MS20 ring mod a lot too- more 'colourful' (imo) than a 'proper' ring mod.

I noticed that the supplied pdf shows the rails to the chip at 15volts. Would it behave itself at 9v?

Jan, did you use my NM patches at the conference in the end? You know you are always welcome to use them. Things have been really frantic over here recently- hence not getting back sooner.

Tom :-)
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 3:31 am    Post subject: Re: Ring Modulator for the Sound Lab Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:

JAN!!! Now I feel I'm at home :))) I

:-)
Quote:

Jan, did you use my NM patches at the conference in the end? You know you are always welcome to use them.


Ok, OT here a bit ... no, not in the noodle radio (that's all self made patches, although I borrowed some ideas) but in a text I wrote for the person to hold a talk about noodles I included some. Whether they will be used I don't know, but I love some of those Kling Klang patches you made & wanted to push 'm a bit.

Jan.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: Ring Modulator for the Sound Lab Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:

I noticed that the supplied pdf shows the rails to the chip at 15volts. Would it behave itself at 9v?


It would probably work, but someone should try it.

If you love grungy sounds, the digital circuit will be delightful. Smile

Please let us hear some of the results, no matter what direction you choose to follow.

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dnny



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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 5:42 pm    Post subject: super simple ring modulator Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi all there is one RM circuit from Aaron Cram

its analog and uses LM13700 (transconductance Amp) + 3 op amps , 8 resistors and 2 pots - thats all! so it´s really super simple

i havent try it yet but, you cant lose anything by breadboarding this

http://www.ori.org/~aaronc/synth/
and scroll down for ring modulator


daniel
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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: super simple ring modulator Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dnny wrote:
Hi all there is one RM circuit from Aaron Cram


That one will work two. It's cheaper than the 633 circuit that was suggested by Photon: http://m.bareille.free.fr/modular1/warp633/warp633.htm

The 633 has the distinct advantage of being laser-trimmed. The LM13700 has a trim pot. Neither circuit is very expensive or complex, so I'd suggest going for the one without the trim pot; the 633. Sometimes, the sound of an oscillator leaking through ruins everything.

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Macaba



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:42 am    Post subject: Re: super simple ring modulator Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dnny wrote:
Hi all there is one RM circuit from Aaron Cram

its analog and uses LM13700 (transconductance Amp) + 3 op amps , 8 resistors and 2 pots - thats all! so it´s really super simple

i havent try it yet but, you cant lose anything by breadboarding this

http://www.ori.org/~aaronc/synth/
and scroll down for ring modulator


daniel


Just to let you guys know, i've stripboarded this ring modulator, and it works absolutely fine. Mosc was totally correct about the osc leaking through, its very slight. As for the sound, i've no idea what a proper ring modulator is supposed to sound like, but this sounds groovy.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Good to hear you built it and it sounds groovy. I'm sure it is pretty close to "proper". For musical purposes, there is no "proper". If you think it's groovy, then that's all that's important.

But, just for completeness, a ring modulator is technically a multiplier, sometimes called a balanced modulator. Here is what one expects from a good mulitplier circuit.

1) when a signal is plugged in to one input and the other one is grounded, there is no output (leakage).

2) when two sine wave oscillators are plugged into the different inputs, the output will also have two sine waves, the sum and difference frequencies. Example, IN1= 400Hz, IN2 = 100Hz, then OUT is a mix of 500 Hz and 300 Hz. If the inputs are pure sine waves, that is all you should hear.

Of course, when you use two signals with many harmonics it is too difficult to predict the output exactly because this sum and difference effect happens between every harmonic in both inputs.

Anyhow, that may be of interest, but for musical purposes sometimes a bad multiplier is better than a "proper" one.

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SuperKoopa



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just some math!

the output of a ring modulator is:

Out=(X*Y)*k+m

X and Y are periodic function like:

X=A*sin(x)....

k and m are costant so we don't care about them.

the question is :why we must buy another IC (i mean ad633) when probably we need just a wire and a switch?

In the VCA there is an input for the LFO (i mean S5 pin 2) which modulate the amplitude of a sound coming in.

just some other math:

X=A*sin(x)
A=B*sin(x)

A is a periodic function ! so we can modulate amplitude with osc 2 out connecting osc2 out with LFO in (or adding a new input)

I don't have build a sound lab yet but mathematics is mathematics!
try to connect S10 pin 1 with S5 pin2 and tell me everything!
I'm pretty shure that this will work, because i've tested it with nord modular g2 software, but I don't know if VCA works at high frequencies.here's some samples:


ring.mp3
 Description:

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 Filename:  ring.mp3
 Filesize:  993.06 KB
 Downloaded:  469 Time(s)


ring modulator.pch2
 Description:

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 Filename:  ring modulator.pch2
 Filesize:  1.08 KB
 Downloaded:  806 Time(s)

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Macaba



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here is a snapshot of my application of the design thats been discussed above. For a DEDICATED ring modulator, this circuit will do the job well. Stripboard layouts don't seem necessary, as if you have the expertise to expand on the soundlab, you can stripboard a very simple circuit. Smile


RingMod.jpg
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RingMod.jpg


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

SuperKoopa wrote:
Just some math!


Yes you are right, and yet you may be wrong :-)

On the NM synths the VCA can be used with both positive and negative control signals, where a negative control signal will invert the the polarity of the audio signal. It is a so called four quadrant multiplier.

In general though hardware VCA implementations do not allow for negative control signals (as this complicates the design of the analog circuit). This makes for a two quadrant multiplier, the audio signal can in general be both positive and negative.

A ring modulator should be a four quadrant multiplier, hence people with analog systems in general need something dedicated for this.

The other way arounf though, depending on the design of the ring modulater it might be possible to use the ring modulator as a VCA (one of the input signals hould be DC coupled so it can act as the control input).

Apart from this, ring modulators are not perfect, they distort. This distortion sometimes is experienced as a wanted efect, another reason to go for a particular implementation.

This non perfectness applies mostly to the "classical" implementation using a "diode ring" (that is where the name ring modulater comes from) and two transformers, but "modern" IC analog four quadrant multipliers are not exactly free of artifacts either.

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fluxmonkey



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 6:53 am    Post subject: Re: Ring Modulator for the Sound Lab Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
...I was hunting around on the net the other day for a really cheap ringmodulator (ala MS20/ Arp Odyssey) found this (and therefore should share the link around!);

http://www.analog-synth.de/synths/ringmod/digital_ringmodulator.htm


I built this into another one of my noisebox synths w/ very good results. feed squarewaves into both inputs, and feed the output into another mix in. mine worked well on 12vdc, would expect it to be fine at 9v. as others have mentioned, not a true ringmod.

bbob
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