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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software
The original Liquid HiHat from Oct. 2007 - back to life. :)
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Richarius



Joined: Feb 22, 2014
Posts: 81
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:03 am    Post subject: The original Liquid HiHat from Oct. 2007 - back to life. :)
Subject description: Proper sub-forum or not?
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Some here, may remember the 'Liquid HiHat' that I'd come up with back in October 2007. A pair of voltage controlled clocks, driving a couple of threads of CD40106 clocks - XORed into 2 separate outputs.
This eventually became hexInverter's 1st commercial product and did well for a little while.
Yesterday - I got most of the original hand drawn PCB from 2007 wired up again and ... mostly 'back to life' oscillating away. Smile
I'm having trouble with the CD4046 or, it's summing CV modulation mixer. The other voice is working perfectly so far.

A lot of modifications / additions are intended for it. If anyone is interested I'll post photos / data on it.

I'm just happy as heck that after 12 years, the original is living again. Very Happy

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Danno Gee Ray



Joined: Sep 25, 2005
Posts: 1351
Location: Telford, PA USA

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:29 am    Post subject:  Liquid HiHat + Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'd love to see this back in action. I'd also very much like to build one for myself.
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Richarius



Joined: Feb 22, 2014
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Liquid HiHat + Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Danno Gee Ray wrote:
I'd love to see this back in action. I'd also very much like to build one for myself.


Hey Danno. Long time. Smile

Alright. I'll list modifications on the schematic as well, as there have been already.

The 'engine' for each voice CAN be easily imitated if you have the modules / functions in your modular! Smile

- Voltage Controlled Clock (square wave VCLFO; +V only)
- Square Clock (LFO +V only) #1
- Square Clock #2

- XOR #1 for VC Clock and Square Clock #1

- XOR #2 for output of XOR #1 and Square Clock #2

There, is the 'engine'. Smile Decay control of a VCA the very least, for some 'realism'.

The more complex version is stacking 2 'engines' together in various hookup formations through more XORs.

The original as well as following versions, sent the 2 engines to 1 side of a pot, which chose the 'balance'.

I'm skipping that this time. Let mixing of all of the sources (Note: all, of the sources Wink ) be mixed somewhere outside of the device, in whichever way.

I'll post more details after lunch. Just got home.

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Richarius



Joined: Feb 22, 2014
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Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here are he changes I've made to the original PCB over the last couple of days. I'm off now, to find out why the 4046 and / or summing opamps for voice #2 aren't working at all. The other 2 clocks in it, are.
(Voice #1 is fine.)


LiquidVoice - LHH V600alpha - JPG.jpg
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LiquidVoice - LHH V600alpha - JPG.jpg



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Richarius



Joined: Feb 22, 2014
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nope. Sad The original Liquid HiHat cannot be brought back to full operations. I've spent over 4 hours trying to debug this one very simple problem and for the life of me, my lack of theory knowledge is preventing me from fixing it. I don't have enough 'time' any more, for bug solving. I'm going to do a quick perfboard replacement for the 2 voices. If all goes well, they should be running by this afternoon. I wish to get this entire new module, finished.
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RingMad



Joined: Jan 15, 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Is anything coming out of the 4046?

1M seems like a lot for the pulldown on pin 5 INH... I usually just tie that to ground with no resistor, but I see you have pin 2 connected to it, so maybe that's fine in this usage.

Also, I once discovered to my surprise that using a tantalum cap between pins 6 & 7 was deadly... VCO simply didn't work. Took hours of hair-pull debugging to learn that, and I still don't know why that made any difference.

.:james:.
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Richarius



Joined: Feb 22, 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

RingMad wrote:
Is anything coming out of the 4046?


Yup! It's frequency WAS adjustable between ~1300hz to ~4300hz with the 10nF cap. that I gave it.
This frequency adjustment, were noted when adjusting the 100k trimmer to pin 12, with pin 11 at it's minimum of 10k.

Quote:

1M seems like a lot for the pulldown on pin 5 INH... I usually just tie that to ground with no resistor, but I see you have pin 2 connected to it, so maybe that's fine in this usage.


I barely understand the functionality of the 4046. Just like I never really learned / fully understood the functionality of the 555, years ago. Too impatient. :-/

I don't remember WHO's circuit the Voltage Controlled Clock IS either. I'd pulled it from an old electronics DIY magazine that I had found online. As soon as I saw it, I thought of Ken Stone's Cynare which I'd already made - to give me *cough 'pitch change' over the hihat. Hence, the LHH was born. (October 2007.)

Direct copy of the circuit for everything.

I remembered that I've used SOMEone's 4046 circuit of simplicity from here, for my Saw / Sqr 4046 VCOs that I have 2 of now. I don't remember who's circuit it were though, to try and copy IT for the V6 of the LHH. It's layed out now on the perfboard, with all of the original hookups from before.

Quote:

Also, I once discovered to my surprise that using a tantalum cap between pins 6 & 7 was deadly... VCO simply didn't work. Took hours of hair-pull debugging to learn that, and I still don't know why that made any difference.

.:james:.


Tant's ... I just don't understand. A few wierd things about them. They're also on a higher likely disc to explode. (WERE, at least. I've replaced them twice in Arp gear, in the past.) Quicker death rate (were, at least as well.)

Nada. I've got a poly 10nF in there, for the replacement that I tried.

The perfboard, has jumpers installed for the caps for the 40106's, as well as the 4046's to narrow down the useful frequency range.

This is all what I don't understand ...

Frequency control + Control Voltage ... summed together in the Inverting Opamp. No prob. Inverted again. No prob. Summed voltage buffered.

That voltage, carried all the way up TO pin 9 of the 4046. (Going through the 10k resistor.)

But the 4046 doesn't respond to it, in ANY way. Only, the Pin 12 trimmer resistor.

So it IS oscillating. It's not 'halted' or whatever, by the other pin for that ...

This is where after more than 4 hours ... I decided to go new board. This project is so large, I want to get it done asap before I ... "LOOK! SQUIRREL!" ... veer off into another interest. Sad

(2 x LHH engines; CD4006 Noise (done); 4 x TR808 toms; 808 White / Pink noise (done); 4 x Decay EGs (DR110) and 4 x VCAs (DR110).

Thanks for your thoughts at least Jim. Appreciated.

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PHOBoS



Joined: Jan 14, 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I member the liquid hi-hat, didn't know it was THAT old but then again it is almost 2020 (2000 used to be the future Rolling Eyes )

The INH pin is indeed wired a bit odd and I suspect it's a leftover from another circuit, but I think it should work just overly complicated:
Pins 3 and 14 are the inputs of an XOR of which pin 2 is the output (you could save yourself an external XOR by using that one). Since
both the input pins are high the output is low which in turn pulls the INH pin (5) low. Don't really see a reason why the CV input wouldn't
work but I would add a diode or some sort of protection against a negative voltage coming from the opamp. The 10K might help but maybe
you already fried the input which would explain why it doesn't work. Have you tried a different 4046 ?

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Richarius



Joined: Feb 22, 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

PHOBoS wrote:
I member the liquid hi-hat, didn't know it was THAT old but then again it is almost 2020 (2000 used to be the future Rolling Eyes )


It's yet another one of those reminders for, as we get older - time flies faster. 12 years for the LHH. Surprised And Version 6 went into testing at 6pm18 yesterday ... 5 of 6 clocks hooked up AND ... not, 1 of them working. Hahn? All stalled at Ground. All +/-V and Ground are fine. Off to investigate after I answer this.

Quote:

The INH pin is indeed wired a bit odd and I suspect it's a leftover from another circuit, but I think it should work just overly complicated:


Were it you by chance, that had given us the REALLY simple 4046 hookup? Ol' age or Alzheimers ... I can't remember who and I don't know where the schematic may be, in my huge # of archives. :-/ I'd like to compare though, as it has a Sawtooth output as well.

Quote:

Pins 3 and 14 are the inputs of an XOR of which pin 2 is the output (you could save yourself an external XOR by using that one).


I've had this on my mind since reading the reply last night. I'm going to have to give the 4046 a good looking at. An extra XOR is always useful! Surprised Smile
Hmm ... I've got panel space for more jacks ... 2 x 4046's in the unit ...

Quote:

Since both the input pins are high the output is low which in turn pulls the INH pin (5) low. Don't really see a reason why the CV input wouldn't
work but I would add a diode or some sort of protection against a negative voltage coming from the opamp. The 10K might help but maybe
you already fried the input which would explain why it doesn't work. Have you tried a different 4046 ?


Diode, yes. From the opamps dual summer ----|>|--- 10k ---- CV Input. For both of the 4046's.
I don't think I HAVE though, on Version 6. I'll get the diodes added.
That though - wont be shutting down the 4 x 40106's. I'll figure it out this morning.

National Semiconductors; new. Replaced one with another NS and then a Motorola. Still, same problems.

That's ok though. The original board is now finally, retired for ever. It's a little harder I think, to do rework on "poor man's surface mount" as the pads get gunky / gumbed up around all of the other wires and parts. It's not all as neat / easy to see as a through hole or a perfboard even. That's at least 2 reworks on that PCB now. It's ... had enough, I think. Wink Lol.

Thanks for your help though Jim. Wishing more'n more, I'd studied and / or gone to school for electronics. (sigh)

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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Richarius wrote:
Were it you by chance, that had given us the REALLY simple 4046 hookup? Ol' age or Alzheimers ... I can't remember who and I don't know where the schematic may be, in my huge # of archives. :-/ I'd like to compare though, as it has a Sawtooth output as well.

I did indeed post a simple 4046VCO with a saw output (which I actually got from the wogglebug schematic) but not sure if that's the same one.
You can find he orginal post here, and some more about it + a different way of getting a SAW out here.

Quote:
Diode, yes. From the opamps dual summer ----|>|--- 10k ---- CV Input. For both of the 4046's.

Yes, like that. You can leave out the 10K (it might actually interfere with the CV control) and you probably need a pulldown resistor after the diode.

Quote:
Thanks for your help though Jim. Wishing more'n more, I'd studied and / or gone to school for electronics. (sigh)

I actually wasted 6 years in college and never even got beyond the 2nd grade Embarassed so that was just a waste of time and money.
I did pick up some things at the beginning mostly about designing digital circuits (probably because I liked that part) and some
basics about programming. But I learned most from studying schematics, building things, and of course this forum. I still have a
lot to learn though. Someday I might be able to wrap my head around current mirrors and expo converters.

Oh, datasheets are also very useful!

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Richarius



Joined: Feb 22, 2014
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Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

PHOBoS wrote:

I did indeed post a simple 4046VCO with a saw output (which I actually got from the wogglebug schematic) but not sure if that's the same one.
You can find he orginal post here, and some more about it + a different way of getting a SAW out here.


Guilty, yay! Thank you! Shall be off to visual them and see what else I may learn. (Reminding myself now, to get / print the 4046 datasheet.)

Quote:
Quote:
Diode, yes. From the opamps dual summer ----|>|--- 10k ---- CV Input. For both of the 4046's.

Yes, like that. You can leave out the 10K (it might actually interfere with the CV control) and you probably need a pulldown resistor after the diode.


Again as above. I'll have to learn what the 10k there is for. I understand about the pulling down, after the diode.

Quote:
Quote:
Thanks for your help though Jim. Wishing more'n more, I'd studied and / or gone to school for electronics. (sigh)

I actually wasted 6 years in college and never even got beyond the 2nd grade Embarassed so that was just a waste of time and money.
I did pick up some things at the beginning mostly about designing digital circuits (probably because I liked that part) and some
basics about programming. But I learned most from studying schematics, building things, and of course this forum. I still have a
lot to learn though. Someday I might be able to wrap my head around current mirrors and expo converters.

Oh, datasheets are also very useful!


Please do pardon my mis-ID'ing you as Jim / Ringmad. Doh. Ol' age? Yeah. Ol' age. Wink

Me too, basically. Smile A great online electronics mentor for '92 to '96 helped me learn greatly, teaching me opamps. Didn't learn the basics of trannies, until a couple of years ago. :-/ (Diodes included.)

6 years lost in college. Ouch. Sad

And hear as well, on / off since 2007. Surprised A lot of great know-how people here that have been wonderful to babble with. Smile

Rebuild of Liquid HiHat Version 6 is fully up and running. Smile Just did a 6 1/2 minute demo, but haven't put it up at my webpage yet.

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Richarius



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Questions to anyone out there following this thread:

- Both of the 'engines' in the (new) Liquid HiHat build, are working properly
- I built my first 'test EG' to use to control the output levels of the 'closed hihat' and the 'open hihat'
-- It's purpose, as with a real drummer / properly setup drum machine software, is to have a new hihat 'trigger', abuptly close, an currently 'open', hihat sound.

Failure. :-/ There's an edited schematic around of the Roland DR-110 section that I implemented. Both of the envelopes are working ... well'ish. The cutting off of the Open hihat seems to be working mostly. (Enough to be useful.)

It's the contour of the audio fading away though, that is perceived way to linearly. Sad That, sucks.

To confirm, I went back to using a pair of Intellijel envelopes from my Quad (with them set to Exponential fall) and there, were the action required in the sounds fading away properly.

So there, be the problem: how, to get the proper open hihat 'cutoff' with a new hihat trigger, with, a truly exponential envelope generator. :-/

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roglok



Joined: Aug 28, 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Richarius wrote:
Questions to anyone out there following this thread:

- Both of the 'engines' in the (new) Liquid HiHat build, are working properly
- I built my first 'test EG' to use to control the output levels of the 'closed hihat' and the 'open hihat'
-- It's purpose, as with a real drummer / properly setup drum machine software, is to have a new hihat 'trigger', abuptly close, an currently 'open', hihat sound.

Failure. :-/ There's an edited schematic around of the Roland DR-110 section that I implemented. Both of the envelopes are working ... well'ish. The cutting off of the Open hihat seems to be working mostly. (Enough to be useful.)

It's the contour of the audio fading away though, that is perceived way to linearly. Sad That, sucks.

To confirm, I went back to using a pair of Intellijel envelopes from my Quad (with them set to Exponential fall) and there, were the action required in the sounds fading away properly.

So there, be the problem: how, to get the proper open hihat 'cutoff' with a new hihat trigger, with, a truly exponential envelope generator. :-/


i suppose you've seen RichardC64's analysis of the DR-110 envelopes and VCA http://www.sdiy.org/richardc64/new_drums/dr110/dr110a1.html ?

Did you try really short triggers? I could imagine that what you perceive as "too linear" is actually due to the envelopes being held high for the duration of the gate/trigger signal. if this is the case there's an easy remedy by adding a gate to trigger converter (see e.g. Ken Stone) before the envelope inputs...
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