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 Forum index » Reviews, Editorials and Commentary » Commentary and Editorials
The USA Soils Itself
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bachus



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:41 am    Post subject: The USA Soils Itself
Subject description: This American Life : Habeas Schmabeas
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This American Life : Habeas Schmabeas

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The right of habeas corpus has been a part of this country's legal tradition longer than we've actually been a country. It means the government has to explain why it's holding a person in custody. But now, the war on terror has nixed many of the rules we used to think of as fundamental. At Guantanamo Bay, our government initially claimed that the prisoners should not be covered by habeas – or even by the Geneva Conventions – because they're the most fearsome terrorist enemies we have. But is that true? Is it a camp full of terrorists, or a camp full of our mistakes? Reporter Jack Hitt unveils everything we know about who these prisoners are. In interviews with two former detainees, he finds out the consequences of taking away habeas, for them and for us. Broadcast the weekend of March 10-12 in most places, or here via RealAudio next week.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, this is an interesting angle on the "problem".

There are several issues here I guess.

1. First of all, has there ever been true freedom, equality and all that jazz for the citizens of the USA?

2. Consider the Spanish War. And has there really been change since? Isn´t there some sort of "ruling class" that has its own agenda. Isn´t there still a serious empire building project going on?

3. Authoritarian states have also been heavy into all sorts of precog crime fighting.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

one of the problems with discussing the prisoners in guantanamo, is that those that are there would (under almost all circumstances in the past) have been killed on the battlefield (as non-uniform wearing suspected combatants) rather than taken into custody. i'm not sure how to address this appropriatley (not simply killing people, not putting them back in the position to do harm, finding out if they really are a threat and releasing as many as possible as soon as possible), but a solution won't come until we can come up with a way we are willing to fight an enemy that doesn't wear bright red coats....this has to be deeper than a simple "free the prisoners".
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
2. Consider the Spanish War. And has there really been change since? Isn´t there some sort of "ruling class" that has its own agenda. Isn´t there still a serious empire building project going on?
.



The Spanish American War of 1898


http://www.loc.gov/rr/hispanic/1898/
http://www.spanamwar.com/warinPhil.htm

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:
but a solution won't come until we can come up with a way we are willing to fight an enemy that doesn't wear bright red coats....this has to be deeper than a simple "free the prisoners".
deknow


It is an illusion that a war is an everday civilized dispute that can be settled like a game of tennis. It is quite possible that Attila the Hun had a better understanding of the proper way of waging war.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'll try to catch this program.

I'm quite sure Atilla The Hun would have done a much better job at fighting this so-called war on terrorism. When I worked for IBM, one of the most popular books there was called something like "The Leadership Principles of Atilla The Hun".

At any rate, I would like to Constitutional rights restored, and I'd like to see fellow citizens outraged by their erosion. At least Bachus is similarly concerned. Idea

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

...it's not that i'm not concerned (i am, especially about prisoners that appear to have been "turned in" by their own enemies), and it's not that i think this can be solved with a game of tennis.

from the "left", we have:
it's unacceptable to imprison these people without charges
it's unacceptable to kill them on the spot

from the "right" we have"
it's unacceptable to simply return people who might be dangerous into a situation where they could cause harm

so to me, the question is not simply "do we release those folks in guantanomo"? but "how do we deal with this class of "suspect"? i'm not sure what the answer should be...or even if there is a good one, but this is the thing of importance here.

i also tend to agree that atilla would have done a much better job at waging war, but i'm not sure that's what we want to be good at. is anyone going to argue that atilla would not have killed these folks (caught on the battlefield, turned in as "enemies")?

waging a war is easy, you kill people and blow things up. when this is done effectively, it's considered an unfair massacare (hiroshima, nagasaki, hitler's mass murders), when it's done half assed and without the conviction to "kill people and blow things up", it becomes a quagmire (vietnam, israel/palistine conflict). the art is in not waging war...that is the hard part. in order to succeed, you have to answer the hard questions, not demand the easy solutions (simply freeing the prisoners).

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just for the record, I don´t think Vietnam qualifies as a half assed job, and the israel/palistine conflict is really not a traditional war and and there is still nothing halfassed about the occupation of Palestine.

Another matter is of course that the colonisation of Palestine really belongs to another age. This is a late 19th century idea, and a bright one as that.

Someone usually have to pay for such bright ideas and noone ever wins.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:
one of the problems with discussing the prisoners in guantanamo, is that those that are there would (under almost all circumstances in the past) have been killed on the battlefield (as non-uniform wearing suspected combatants) rather than taken into custody.


Bush lies*, but he's such a sweet descent god fearing guy, people believe him and so don't bother to check the facts. Why not try hearing this out and after checking ITS facts see if you are still willing to take this position.

*When he says these are "worst of the worst"

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The war on terrorism as well as the Guantanamo Bay project are both not quite of the Bjørn Borg material, as tennis matches come. There are very few wars that are winnable the way WW1 and WW2 were. In these cases we were looking at destroying the opponent and the opponents were clearly defined. In the case of WW2 it was about taking out "evil" empires and some still think of this war as a good war.

It can be argued that Bin Laden`s anti-imperialistic project ( and I am not sure this is a proper term for it ) can not effectively be opposed using traditional means.

Bachus does of course not just think of the prisoners of Guantanamo Bay but also the rights and privileges of the citizens of the US.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:

from the "left", we have:
it's unacceptable to imprison these people without charges
it's unacceptable to kill them on the spot


I don’t think you are in a position to speak for the “left”

deknow wrote:

so to me, the question is not simply "do we release those folks in guantanomo"? but "how do we deal with this class of "suspect"? i'm not sure what the answer should be...or even if there is a good one, but this is the thing of importance here.


That is a blatently false dichotomy! The issue is habeas corpus, NOT "do we release those folks in guantanomo" or not! It's very easy to address an issue that one makes up to suit one's position. Why don't you listen to the program and check ITS facts and address the issue at hand THE RIGHT OF HABEAS CORPUS.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Bachus does of course not just think of the prisoners of Guantanamo Bay but also the rights and privileges of the citizens of the US.



Thanks for the vote of decency. But it's also a personal matter of patriotism. I love the constitution and the principles enshrined there in. It makes me ashamed and sick to my stomach see the way this administration defiles it.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
But it's also a personal matter of patriotism. I love the constitution and the principles enshrined there in. It makes me ashamed and sick to my stomach see the way this administration defiles it.


Yes, it is a sad story, but hasn´t it always been defiled in some way or another? This time they are only taking the last measures needed to turn the US into a banana republic.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

..i want to try and address everything.

1. stein, as far as "war" goes, those are half assed conflicts (i think). i'm also not saying it's a bad thing...i'm glad that israel doesn't seem to commit the "massacares" in refugee camps that they are often accused of (though they do make strikes, and kill innocent civilian children). much easier, cheaper, and more effective to just bomb the whole camp from the air. not doing this is "diplomacy", not "waging war" (again, at least it seems this way to me)....these seem to be mutually exclusive (full out war has no room for diplomacy, full diplomatic measures don't involve the military).

Quote:
Bachus does of course not just think of the prisoners of Guantanamo Bay but also the rights and privileges of the citizens of the US.
perhaps, but this was not part of what he posted starting this thread.


bachus:
1. i don't think those in guantanamo are the worst of the worst. as i said, some of them seem to simply have been handed over by their own enemies. the issue of habeus corpus has never come up with this class of prisoner simply because they would never have been captured in the past, they would have been killed. you seem to be making a false assumption that my position is based on that i think the prisoners in guantanamo are "the worst of the worst".

2. i don't claim to speak for anyone but myself. there is quite a differance between claiming to "speak for the left" and "observing what i hear from the left". this seems quite clear to me, but i'm sorry if it was confusing.

3.
Quote:
That is a blatently false dichotomy! The issue is habeas corpus, NOT "do we release those folks in guantanomo" or not! It's very easy to address an issue that one makes up to suit one's position. Why don't you listen to the program and check ITS facts and address the issue at hand THE RIGHT OF HABEAS CORPUS.

what you posted (starting this thread) speaks solely about habeus corpus in relation to guantanamo prisoners. the reasoning given:
Quote:
The right of habeas corpus has been a part of this country's legal tradition longer than we've actually been a country.

..smells just like the arguments against gay marrige ("it has always been between a man and a woman")....sorry, it doesn't wash. if this is about habeas corpus and _not_ releasing prisonsers in guantanamo, then perhaps it would be more clear if you would point out some non-guantanamo examples (the npr synopsis you posted certainly didn't).

i am very likely to listen to the show, this american life is one of the best shows on radio. when doing research, i prefer online print media. listening to a show takes a long time, and it's more difficult to look things up in context (like i can when reading). habeas corpus is undoubtedly important, but i don't see it as an absolute right that can never have restrictions under any circumstances.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:

..smells just like the arguments against gay marrige ("it has always been between a man and a woman")....sorry, it doesn't wash.


That in no way justifies argument by false dichotomy.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

...i'm not sure exactly what you mean by "argument by false dichontomy". if you think i purposefuly changed the emphesis from habeas corpus to guantanamo in order to have better argument, you would be mistaken. based on the blurb you posted, the npr show seems to be about the prisoners at guantanamo, not habaus corpus.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:


1. stein, as far as "war" goes, those are half assed conflicts (i think). i'm also not saying it's a bad thing...i'm glad that israel doesn't seem to commit the "massacares" in refugee camps that they are often accused of (though they do make strikes, and kill innocent civilian children). much easier, cheaper, and more effective to just bomb the whole camp from the air. not doing this is "diplomacy", not "waging war" (again, at least it seems this way to me)....these seem to be mutually exclusive (full out war has no room for diplomacy, full diplomatic measures don't involve the military).


I reckon all this is OT anyway and we shouldn´t take this thread too far off track, but I still cannot see this conflict being halfassed.. but we were talking war and this is not really a traditional "modern" war. This specific conflict has been redefined and reinvented so many times that it is easy to forget that we are still talking about a simple imperialistic late 19th century immensely bright idea that turned into a complete disaster. If this had been a sitcom it would have been taken off the air after half a season or it might not even gotten past the pilot stage.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

stein, i agree with all that.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
bachus wrote:
But it's also a personal matter of patriotism. I love the constitution and the principles enshrined there in. It makes me ashamed and sick to my stomach see the way this administration defiles it.


Yes, it is a sad story, but hasn´t it always been defiled in some way or another?


Well yes, but then we are a country governed by human beings, perfection is not even a possiblity. Except for bonobos one should be greatful simply not to be beat to death when one finds one's self in the society of apes Sad

elektro80 wrote:
This time they are only taking the last measures needed to turn the US into a banana republic.


I still have a hope that we can do better than that.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:
stein, i agree with all that.

deknow


I guessed as much.


Still OT, but ... the war on terrorism is yet another late 19th century immensely bright idea.. that should have been scrapped ..
This "war" is in many ways directly related to the reasoning behind the Spanish American War. I am arguing that the very concept is flawed. That is why I think it is very hard to come up with sensible ideas re how to handle the fallout of this bright idea.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
elektro80 wrote:
This time they are only taking the last measures needed to turn the US into a banana republic.


I still have a hope that we can do better than that.


I hope the same, but sooner or later you guys will have to consider turning the USA into a modern democracy.

I hear Italy will give you Berlusconi for free.

Hey, hang on guys.. I am getting messages here.. aha.. uhu.. seems like Italy will be paying you to take Berlusconi ..

...Carlo.. I cannot read italian too well.. does this here mean "protection money" or salary???

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Just for the record, I don´t think Vietnam qualifies as a half assed job, and the israel/palistine conflict is really not a traditional war and and there is still nothing halfassed about the occupation of Palestine.

Vietnam was truely half-assed. There was not a committment to win that war. If Atilla was running it, then he would not have started it unless he was going to win it. To win it would have required nuclear or chemical warfare - he would have done it. In the US war protestors would have been locked up or shot on the spot. The US would have had to occupy North Vietnan and replace the government there. I'm not saying I would support that, but Vietnam was half-assed.

One could argue the same about Israel and Palestine, but that is not the topic.

The fact is that there is no military solution to the war on terror. Suspending habeas corpus might be justifiable in a real war, but in this case, it is counter productive in that it gives away the moral high-ground and demotivates the population. Lincoln realized this in the Civil War. The way he overcame this was with the Emancipation Proclaimation - a notable goal the country could rally behind and justify virtually any sacrifice.

By suspending habeus corpus and the rule of law, we play right into the hands of the enemy. We appear to be agressors in the Middle East. What are we doing liberating Iraq from an Iraqi dictator? Is it because Sadam locked up people without charges, torutured them and killed them. Don't we do this too? Are we bringing peace and stablity and the rule of justing and law to Iraq? No, people can argue that things are worse now.

There was a time after Sadam fell that there was a battle for the hearts and minds of the people. That time may be over. By suspending habeus corpus and other constitutional rights, by torturing people who are suspects, we are starting to loose the hearts and minds of not only the Iraqis but of the American people.

This so-called war on terror has no defined enemy, no territory to conquer, no one to sue for surrender, no clear military objectives, no definable end-state. The sophisticated weapons of the modern super power are virtually usless against underground cells of handsfull of people willing to die for their cause. It's no more a war than the fight against crime or cancer or forest fires, or the war on poverty. The so-called war on terror has no end - you can't even define a set of conditions that would describe an end to it.

This war is really a very important and significant campaign for internal security and civil defense. This must be achieved though constitutional means.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:
... based on the blurb you posted, the npr show seems to be about the prisoners at guantanamo, not habaus corpus.


Well I certainly can't think of anything to say in response to that.

deknow wrote:
... habeas corpus is undoubtedly important, but i don't see it as an absolute right that can never have restrictions under any circumstances.


Good Lord, you wan'a go pre Magna Carta. That sure seems consistent with my definition of fascist.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:

I hear Italy will give you Berlusconi for free.

as long as we will not have to pay to get Bush Cool

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
The fact is that there is no military solution to the war on terror.


My point exactly. Very Happy

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