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Rix
Joined: Aug 08, 2004 Posts: 83 Location: Breda, the Netherlands
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Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:55 am Post subject:
Markov chains |
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Has anyone ideas how to implement a Markov chain with the G2?
These are ideal for generation of musical patterns (rythm, note or chord sequences) based on simple statistics.
Take for instance 3 notes, c, d e. The system can be in any of these 'states', (c, d or e).
The chances of going from one state to the other are :
c -> c : 0.3 (from c to c: 30% chance..)
c -> d : 0.4
c -> e : 0.3
d -> d : 0.2
d -> e : 0.5
etc...
It is often depicted in a Markov diagram showing the states as circles and arrows pointing at the other (or same) state with the chances alongside it.
Markov chains (from communications theory) are also an excellent tool to analyse music. E.g. you could feed a Markov system with Bach and Prince pieces, and out comes a Bach/Prince composition!
But back to simple basics:
How would we do this in the G2?
We would need variable chances depending on the current state we are in.
Richard |
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egw
Stream Operator
Joined: Feb 01, 2003 Posts: 1569 Location: Asheville NC
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Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:24 am Post subject:
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I did a markov chain on the classic NM. It would play a chord sequence and transition between states based on a probability matrix. The logic was quite convoluted, but it should be much easier on a G2. |
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Rix
Joined: Aug 08, 2004 Posts: 83 Location: Breda, the Netherlands
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Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:57 am Post subject:
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Quote: | I did a markov chain on the classic NM. |
Heey .. great!
Would you still have the NM patch as a reference?
Richard |
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mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18197 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:31 am Post subject:
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I'm not trying to discourage anyone from doing anything experimental things on the G2, but my take on these complex copositional algorithms is that it is more productive to use a computer program that is designed for this purpose. I use Keykit which is free and quite fantastic. It was written by Tim Thompson, AKA TJT, a memeber of the electro-music.com forum. There are other possibilities like MAX and ArtWonk, http://algoart.com/artwonk.htm. If an all-in-one system is desired, the Kyma system might be a better choice. http://www.symbolicsound.com/cgi-bin/bin/view/Company/WebHome
The are many more.
You can probably build a house with a Swiss Army Knife, or even a G2 for that matter, but there is something to be said about the right tool for the right job.
That said, let's see what the G2 can do with Markov chains.
BTW, I've heard lots of Markov chains music, but not much sounds very good to me. Intellecturally this stuff if facinating, but it doesn't seem to pan out. I would love to be proven wrong. |
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egw
Stream Operator
Joined: Feb 01, 2003 Posts: 1569 Location: Asheville NC
Audio files: 18
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Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:22 am Post subject:
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Yes I still have the patch. If you want to contact me off-line I'll send it to you. It might even be in the NM archive, it's called "progger."
But I'm not sure it's worth the effort to study (unless you're highly motivated) due to it's complexity. It uses a set of S&H modules for each bit of the state register. And a bunch of compare modules to encode the probability matrix. The more sophisticated logic modules, flip-flops, controlled switches, A/D converters etc. will make this much easier on the G2. Unfortunately it will be a few weeks before I have a chance to do any G2 programming.
Anyway I agree with Howard that the results of this sort of thing are often less than satisfying. Now I mostly use pseudo-random patterns, you can specify the length you want, then just dial through them until you find one that sounds good. It's alot easier (and more fun) than entering sequences one note at a time. |
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Rix
Joined: Aug 08, 2004 Posts: 83 Location: Breda, the Netherlands
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Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:03 am Post subject:
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Thanks guys.
Mosc, you are probably right: it is far more easy to do Markov chains in a programming language than on a modular system. I might write some Delphi midi code for that, when I have time...
BTW, interesting links about these music systems!
Is this Kyma system and the hardware box represented in Europe?
cheers,
Richard |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24079 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
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Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:54 am Post subject:
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Rix wrote: | TIs this Kyma system and the hardware box represented in Europe? |
It never was, all transaction went with Symbolic Sound corporation directly, and I don't think this changed as it seems to be their way of doing bussiness. But from what I heard I think they are very friendly and helpfull people to deal with.
Jan. |
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mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18197 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:41 am Post subject:
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Blue Hell wrote: | But from what I heard I think they are very friendly and helpfull people to deal with. |
There are many Kyma systems in Europe, but I'm not sure if there is a dealer or representative. I think Jan is right. I have one and am ashamed I've never gotten much done with it. The people at Kyma are the best. Customer support is as good as it can get. The only problem with Kyma is that the system is pretty expensive, and the learning curve is steep. It's very open too. I have used it for auto panning in surround sound. Kyma is used by sound designers and producers for major Hollywood movies and commericals. Also, game designers are big into Kyma. |
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pstnotpd
Joined: Apr 09, 2004 Posts: 34 Location: Netherlands
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Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:38 pm Post subject:
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> I have one and am ashamed I've never gotten much done with it.
Hmm, have you got the Kyma X software up already? I was asking around here but it's pretty well unknown over here.
Patrick |
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mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18197 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:59 pm Post subject:
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Yes, I have Kyma X. |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24079 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
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Rix
Joined: Aug 08, 2004 Posts: 83 Location: Breda, the Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:34 pm Post subject:
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Hey ... nice!
kind of minimal music indeed.
Richard |
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mosc
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Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18197 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:57 pm Post subject:
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It certainly sounds Markovian, but yikes, it's not really intuitive looking at your patch. |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24079 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 278
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:04 pm Post subject:
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mosc wrote: | It certainly sounds Markovian, but yikes, it's not really intuitive looking at your patch. |
... and it should be more complex even ... to account for note length, tempo & all those other interesting details.
Instead of more of the same complexity I added some different semi-random treatments, it might end up as a noodle some day.
Jan.
(Who couldn't find the magic Bach setting for the knobs) |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24079 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
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G2 patch files: 320
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blue hell
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Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24079 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 278
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astroid power-up!
Joined: Mar 23, 2004 Posts: 334
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:00 pm Post subject:
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whoa. that is really cheap. looks good. _________________ Astroid Power-Up!: "googleplex" available at:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/googleplex |
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ian-s
Joined: Apr 01, 2004 Posts: 2669 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Kassen
Janitor
Joined: Jul 06, 2004 Posts: 7678 Location: The Hague, NL
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:32 am Post subject:
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I know one shop that used to sell Kyma's, not sure they still do.
For just doing a markov chain and sending notes over MIDI I think it's a bit overkill I'd go with PureData, SupperCollider or ChucK; all of those are very good at that sort of thing and are free. Doesn't need to be hard on the cpu either.
Just write the chance stuff as a function, then loop over alplying that function to the curent note and sending the note over MIDI. _________________ Kassen |
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lamarcph
Joined: Oct 21, 2004 Posts: 40 Location: Montreal, Canada
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:25 pm Post subject:
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I am supposed to be studying dynamic/linear programming (as in tabular method, not writing code), I passed last weekend deep into numeric methods for a exam on monday. For five minutes, I am taking a break from all this non-sense, escaping the reality of the summers final exams and what are we talking about?
Markov chains...
Ok, maybe I started an engineering degree to understand all this. But, now that I do start to understand, my G2 is collecting dust.
Patching season resumes friday 11th, 1:30pm. |
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astroid power-up!
Joined: Mar 23, 2004 Posts: 334
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:31 pm Post subject:
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hahaha!
sorry about that _________________ Astroid Power-Up!: "googleplex" available at:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/googleplex |
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