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storm
Joined: Aug 04, 2006 Posts: 4 Location: Bilbao
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:57 am Post subject:
Looking for GOOD SYNTH Bass, the challlenge for Andromeda |
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I had my Andromeda for some years and I always saw difficult machine to make proper Synth BASS in this synth, with a lot time and tweaking I could get some good ones with its character ,
but unfortunately I lost my user patches with a SYS EX dump,
now I´m starting to do New patches and hell how difficult is this synth to make the BASS, does anyone has any GOOD Synth Bass, that can share with me????? I´m looking for those XPANDER Synth BASS that Andromeda is resinting to make ,ufffffff it is hard Synth , any help will apreciated !!! |
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sunny pedaal
Joined: Nov 16, 2004 Posts: 735 Location: netherlands
Audio files: 12
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sunny pedaal
Joined: Nov 16, 2004 Posts: 735 Location: netherlands
Audio files: 12
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sunny pedaal
Joined: Nov 16, 2004 Posts: 735 Location: netherlands
Audio files: 12
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sunny pedaal
Joined: Nov 16, 2004 Posts: 735 Location: netherlands
Audio files: 12
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sunny pedaal
Joined: Nov 16, 2004 Posts: 735 Location: netherlands
Audio files: 12
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storm
Joined: Aug 04, 2006 Posts: 4 Location: Bilbao
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:53 am Post subject:
Looking for GOOD SYNTH Bass, the challlenge for Andromeda |
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Thanx so much Sunny, I will try your patches, I think it will help as
always teaches to see different progamming techniques ...
you can check my synth basses I did in www.myspace.com/alliedvision
Keep on the patch ...
oscar
[/i] |
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juno6
Joined: Aug 25, 2006 Posts: 18 Location: Argentina
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Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:45 pm Post subject:
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Hey Storm, please don´t say the A6 is a difficult machine for bass. It´s an amazing machine for basses, among other things. "Xpander Bass", those two words together are a contradiction!!!!! |
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storm
Joined: Aug 04, 2006 Posts: 4 Location: Bilbao
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:58 am Post subject:
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Oberheim XPANDER is a Real Synth for Synth Bass,you can check all the albums made with Xpander, I have done some good synth bass in my Andromeda which are years away from the presets,
but it is still a difficult machine for Synth Bass, basically the oscillators are
colder than anything analog I have, I own Studio Electronics OMEGA, SE1X
Oberheim OBMX, Waldorf Microwave ,also I haven´t heard a Heavy synth bass in all the Andromeda library from Alesis site |
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juno6
Joined: Aug 25, 2006 Posts: 18 Location: Argentina
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:11 am Post subject:
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Hi Storm, this is my last post on the subject.
>Oberheim XPANDER is a Real Synth for Synth Bass,
>you can check all the albums made with Xpander,
I love my Xpander, I have tons of albums made
with it, but that doesn´t mean they were used it for bass.
Ask Mike Peake what he thinks of the Xpander, or
read the comments in synthsite.
>I have done some good synth bass in my Andromeda
>which are years away from the presets,
I don´t know, I never heard the presets.
>but it is still a difficult machine for Synth Bass, basically
>the oscillators are colder than anything analog I have,
>I own Studio Electronics OMEGA, SE1X, Oberheim OBMX,
>Waldorf Microwave ,
So the A6 oscillators are colder than the ones in the MW????
LOL
I visited your website, so at one point I was expecting that
name droping. I can only speak of the SE synths because I
know them, I don´t consider them warmer than the ones
in the A6. BTW, we were talking about the Xpander, and
those oscillators are colder than the A6 ones. And the
envelopes are slowwww... (
>also I haven´t heard a Heavy synth bass in all the Andromeda
>library from Alesis site
That´s where the problem is (IMHO): the A6 is not a synth for
presets or factory libraries. If you need someone else to make your
bass sounds for you, don´t blame the synth then. |
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storm
Joined: Aug 04, 2006 Posts: 4 Location: Bilbao
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:11 am Post subject:
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I will blame whatever I want as Andromeda Owner I am and user owner
of most of the analog synths ever produced in history
Thanx for your great HELP ! |
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007 Posts: 1113 Location: Loss Angeles
Audio files: 3
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Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:08 am Post subject:
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juno6 wrote: | I love my Xpander, I have tons of albums made
with it, but that doesn´t mean they were used it for bass.
Ask Mike Peake what he thinks of the Xpander, or
read the comments in synthsite. |
The best "Xpander" album is "Belief" by Nitzer Ebb. It helps to have Flood mix for you
"Referring to 'the Oberheim sound,'" Tom told me, "I think the early designs- the SEM, the OB-1, the OB-X, and the OB-Xa- have somewhat better sound than the OB-8 and the instruments that followed it. I think that's because the sound of the earlier designs is dirtier in subtle ways, and therefore seems to have more guts. The OB-8 is a more perfect design. The auto-tune routine tunes the oscillators more perfectly. But the sound is clean...too clean."
-P. 156, "Vintage Synthesizers", Mark Vail
Regarding bass sounds, and larger sounds in general, there is a thread about the A6 on vintagesynthexplorer about the history of the A6 where I went into detail, and also posited an idea for even larger sounds.
To enjoy. |
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juno6
Joined: Aug 25, 2006 Posts: 18 Location: Argentina
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Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:12 pm Post subject:
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Peake wrote: |
The best "Xpander" album is "Belief" by Nitzer Ebb. It helps to have Flood mix for you
"Referring to 'the Oberheim sound,'" Tom told me, "I think the early designs- the SEM, the OB-1, the OB-X, and the OB-Xa- have somewhat better sound than the OB-8 and the instruments that followed it. I think that's because the sound of the earlier designs is dirtier in subtle ways, and therefore seems to have more guts. The OB-8 is a more perfect design. The auto-tune routine tunes the oscillators more perfectly. But the sound is clean...too clean."
...
Regarding bass sounds, and larger sounds in general, there is a thread about the A6 on vintagesynthexplorer about the history of the A6 where I went into detail, and also posited an idea for even larger sounds.
To enjoy. |
Wow, the man himself! Nice to hear from you Mike.
I posted this on another topic, but it comes handy to make clear how much a good bass machine the A6 is. This sound was made with just one voice (no unison) using the Moog filter, no FX, no EQ, no nothing...
No bass, huh?
I´ll record some more demos in the future...
BTW, I have my A6 next to a Roland System 100M and I can copy their sounds with a 98% accuracy. Even complex sounds with filter FM and cross modulation. That´s a vintage machine, with vintage sound... I don´t understand people saying the A6 can´t sound "vintage".
Yesterday I copied the sound of Toto´s Africa and that sounded really similar (was a CS80???). Don´t you think that I like to copy things, but when I read negative comments about the A6 (like no bass capabilities, or not vintage sounding) I wonder if people that buy it knows anything about "analog" synthesis... there´re so many tricks to shape it´s sound...
Another good reference for Xpander sounds is anything Vince Clarke did from 1986 onwards (some records also produced by "God" Flood). But not for bass... Last edited by juno6 on Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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sunny pedaal
Joined: Nov 16, 2004 Posts: 735 Location: netherlands
Audio files: 12
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Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:50 pm Post subject:
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i have a sys 100m too but i can't make my a6 sound like it.
it's just two different synth's in fact the roland is more perfected in it's analog power , directness in sound , the a6 is polyphonic, has memories sounds good and can make lookalikes like my crumar ds2. plus it's midified and i dare taking it to a gig.
about the bass, it can go low ; with just stupid limitations in the freq (27hz or something like that, and then some organsquaresubbass, it's a pity), and it has also huge possibilities to make a good bass sound.
the osc indeed i find not the fattest i'v heard (like my minimoog), in fact their a bit arp midlow/high in sound. but afcourse good filtering can do wonders , as i already mentioned before.
they are a bit thinner compared to my korg dv800 , more something like the ms 20 cleaner and with less noise.
( i wouldn't call it cold, the a6 to me is more like a bigbig pack of possibilties and studies, thought's and hopes to me. plus it expresses the limitations in time, like any good synth should do. so it's more like looking into a resting black hole than being cold)
one more question, Thanks for the mp3's but just make me feel a bit "warmer" and also put a .sys or .mid file with it !?
fr.gr.sunny |
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juno6
Joined: Aug 25, 2006 Posts: 18 Location: Argentina
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Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject:
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sunny pedaal wrote: | i have a sys 100m too but i can't make my a6 sound like it.
it's just two different synth's in fact the roland is more perfected in it's analog power , directness in sound , the a6 is polyphonic, has memories sounds good and can make lookalikes like my crumar ds2. plus it's midified and i dare taking it to a gig.
about the bass, it can go low ; with just stupid limitations in the freq (27hz or something like that, and then some organsquaresubbass, it's a pity), and it has also huge possibilities to make a good bass sound.
the osc indeed i find not the fattest i'v heard (like my minimoog), in fact their a bit arp midlow/high in sound. but afcourse good filtering can do wonders , as i already mentioned before.
they are a bit thinner compared to my korg dv800 , more something like the ms 20 cleaner and with less noise.
( i wouldn't call it cold, the a6 to me is more like a bigbig pack of possibilties and studies, thought's and hopes to me. plus it expresses the limitations in time, like any good synth should do. so it's more like looking into a resting black hole than being cold)
one more question, Thanks for the mp3's but just make me feel a bit "warmer" and also put a .sys or .mid file with it !?
fr.gr.sunny |
Hi again, Sunny.
I did a little test, very fast, comparing the A6 and the System 100M. I was going to tell which is which, but now I think its more fun to let all of you decide. Maybe it´s a little off topic, but who cares anyway.
You have one synth on one side and the other synth on the other side.
On one side I put a little click, so anyone can say which synth is the one with the click. If I had more time I could have make it better.
It has 6 segments:
1. Self osc filter modulated by env.
2. 1 osc thru the filter modulated by env.
3. Similar but with more resonance.
4. Similar but now with longer attack time.
5. Now 2 osc with no resonance.
6. This was the hardest to do, with one osc as sound source and the other
doing filter FM. As tracking is not perfect, it´s imposible to make the same sound on both, unless you do no pitch tracking.
Have fun!!!
JZ: |
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007 Posts: 1113 Location: Loss Angeles
Audio files: 3
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:23 pm Post subject:
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Here's that bit from another forum. It's just stream-of-consciousness conception about how to create larger sounds on the A6. I don't have one to try it out, or I'd post patches.
One trick I've had in mind (Mix Mode) is to use Colin's sub-osc at 34.7 volume trick, with Osc 2 soft or hard sync'd to Osc 1, with just enough Osc 2 subosc to create a single, large waveform, effectively the sound of just one, larger-than-normal-A6-oscillator (can use Filter 1's HPF to track the fundamental with resonance to increase the size). Use Unison X and or Chord to "tune" another voice, having it act as a second Oscillator to the first. It would have to be the same overall Program, filter settings and envelope times, etc.
Route a satisfactory result out an Aux jack, into Voice 15 Audio In. Program Voice 15's Filters in parallel, with Filter 2 open and Filter 1's BPF at about 40-80Hz. Set that Program to the Main outs. This is just blue sky conjecture, but using the filters in an Audio In voice to mimic the Moog filters' seeming bass boost, as the resonance effectively shuts off down toward and past about 125Hz, is part of the early Moog sound. Of course, you'll have to use an envelope to Filter 2 Resonance or through the TG for the source voices...
And note... The very fastest setttings, in either 1.40.12 or the beta rev .13 are faster than the Modular or Mini envelopes. We found that the Minimoog VCA would click with an input voltage rise time faster than about 750uS. This might vary between Minis and with calibration as well, but the point stands; the Minimoog was not a speed hound. Use slower Engine Optimizer settings. This also cleans up the PWM some. |
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kraster
Joined: Aug 06, 2007 Posts: 13 Location: Ireland
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Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:09 am Post subject:
ANDROMEDA BASS |
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Thanks for the tips MR. Peake.
For me, the most effective way to get good bass from the andromeda is to use one Oscillator as your timbre sound and use the other Oscillator to provide the "floor" of the bass.
Tune the second oscillator down 1 or two octaves lower than Oscillator 1 and use the post filter osc 2 sine level. This keeps the lower end pure. I have found that using both Oscillators together give some phase cancellation making the Bass end inconsistent..
Using this method I have acheived some bone rattling Bass. My neighbours will testify to this!!!! |
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007 Posts: 1113 Location: Loss Angeles
Audio files: 3
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Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:40 pm Post subject:
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Thanks, you've reminded me of that old idea...
Try changing the preset = depth = into a plucky bass sound. You may have to bring Filter 2 up an octave or two, but there is your independent sine wave, playing alongside both oscillators through Filter 1 for added, um, depth.
Any sound you can get from Filter 1 will be embiggened by Filter 2 as a sine wave. Try the HP and BP modes... |
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007 Posts: 1113 Location: Loss Angeles
Audio files: 3
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Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:31 am Post subject:
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One of my above hints can be applied to the instrument overall..
Enable External Inputs on both Voices 15 and 16, and run the Main outputs into them. Use the Voice 15/16 outputs to your mixer.
Set Filter 2 to something like 20 in the Post Filter Mix. Set its Fc to maximum, no resonance.
Set Filter 1's Bandpass output to 20 or more in the PFM. Set resonance at minimum, and the Fc at around 500Hz.
Change the Fc and Filter 1's PFM level to taste, to add some midbass and lower midrange to the instrument overall. This is a region the instrument lacks, for some unknown VLSI reason.
Should be good on pads, and even in Multi Mode. Sweep F1 via the ribbon or MW like any external filter box. Gate it's Fc via a MIDI-sync'd LFO square wave. |
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007 Posts: 1113 Location: Loss Angeles
Audio files: 3
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Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:25 am Post subject:
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Juno 6, have you posted that bass patch anywhere?
And has anyone tried the ideas gone over in this thread? Not much happening on this A6 forum except for arguing. |
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kraster
Joined: Aug 06, 2007 Posts: 13 Location: Ireland
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Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:43 am Post subject:
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I tried out your tip above, Mike. Very cool. It really changes the sonics of the bass end.
One thing that you touched on in the bass post above is the fact that the most lacking area of the Andy is the 100 to 300hz range of the bass end. There's a lot of Sub-bass possible and upper mids/hi end are no problem.
I find using the BP routing from filter 1 into filter 2 with a relatively Hi Q/Res allows you to find the sweet spot in the bass end. Also by taking the filter 2 KB tracking off in this mode keeps it more consistant.
The Band Pass mode with a touch of Filter feedback on Filter 1 and a higher Q/Res and a short decay on filter 1's envelope allows you to go into funkadelic/Daft punk Bass areas. The andy's great for Bass.
Again in these methods, there is one Osc being used solely as the underpinning bass frequency by returning the Sine in the post filter level. Also a touch of filter fm on filter 1 from the "Sub Bass" Oscillator can lead to interesting results. |
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007 Posts: 1113 Location: Loss Angeles
Audio files: 3
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Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:19 am Post subject:
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Very good points.
Yes, the A6 is lacking in the "chesty" area you mentioned, for some unexplained reason. Low bass is easy, but the knock in the gut isn't.
Thanks for the tips. If anyone hasn't tried using my tip with V15 and 16 as spectral controls for the overall sound of the instrument, know that you can get extreme variance if you wish. It's worth losing two voices of polyphony. (This is speculation; I don't have an A6 in front of me to check, but this is how it should work, with filters in parallel, of course.) |
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007 Posts: 1113 Location: Loss Angeles
Audio files: 3
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Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:59 pm Post subject:
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Wow, pretty dead forum. Not much interest left in the A6, I guess. |
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jonkull
Joined: Sep 22, 2006 Posts: 164 Location: Burbank, CA
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Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:45 pm Post subject:
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Peake wrote: | Wow, pretty dead forum. Not much interest left in the A6, I guess. |
I see people rave about the Andy regularly on other forums but very few people actually seem to own them and the ones that are interested are afraid to buy because of all the horror stories about bad voices and tuning problems. It's a shame really. It's a great synth. I wish there was a larger user base and more of a presence online. When I bought my first Kurzweil I was greeted with a multitude of patches and some great web resources frequented by people that were passionate and knowledgeable about K2xx synths (much like the Nord Modular people here and the people over at moogmusic). The A6 is a deep, complex instrument but the community just isn't there like it is for other synths. |
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kraster
Joined: Aug 06, 2007 Posts: 13 Location: Ireland
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Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:14 am Post subject:
Andromeda |
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jonkull wrote: | Peake wrote: | Wow, pretty dead forum. Not much interest left in the A6, I guess. |
I see people rave about the Andy regularly on other forums but very few people actually seem to own them and the ones that are interested are afraid to buy because of all the horror stories about bad voices and tuning problems. It's a shame really. It's a great synth. I wish there was a larger user base and more of a presence online. When I bought my first Kurzweil I was greeted with a multitude of patches and some great web resources frequented by people that were passionate and knowledgeable about K2xx synths (much like the Nord Modular people here and the people over at moogmusic). The A6 is a deep, complex instrument but the community just isn't there like it is for other synths. |
I think the Andy was probably ahead of the trend when it came out. The more mainstream interest in Analogue Synths is a relatively recent phenomenon. Take Ebay, for example, prices of analogues have risen to astronomical levels and their is no shortage of demand. Just look at the amount of Boutique analogues that have come out within the last 5-7 years or so. The Voyager, little phatty, sunsyn, etc. etc.
Being part of the Alesis corporation didn't help matters either. Don't get me wrong, I'm not disparaging Alesis as a company but the popular view of Alesis is of a company that specialises in cheap gear. The Andromeda was so out of character for them. There seems to be a lack of faith that it would deliver what was promised because of its association. It's akin to Steve Albini endorsing Auto-tune!!!!
It was also rejected to some degree by the purists who viewed the digital aspects of this synth as incompatible with the idea of an analogue synth. In reality the digital aspects of the Andromeda actually address the main problems I have with analogue synths.
It's not the easiest synth to find your way around at first. And there are so many little operational idiosyncracies that it does take a good knowledge of the synth to realise its full potential. The title of this thread is testament to the view that it is incapable of certain sounds that one would normally associate with analogues. It is more than capable of this and more. You just have to spend time with it.
I also think the technical problems that besieged the tuning that you mentioned were also enough to scare off potential buyers and were the last nail in the coffin.
The truth is, IMHO, it's one of the greatest American synths ever built. A true analogue Monster. If moog, arp, DSI or oberheim had their name on the Andy it would have been hailed as an instant classic. |
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