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Inventing a future crime: Precogs are watching you!
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:13 pm    Post subject: Inventing a future crime: Precogs are watching you! Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

From the EDR newsletter:

EU COMMISSION HEADS FOR GLOBAL TRAVEL SURVEILLANCE SYSTEM

The UK civil liberties group Privacy International, in co-operation with
European Digital Rights, the Foundation for Information Policy Research
and Statewatch, has published an analysis of the EU-US negotiations on the
transfer on passenger information (PNR). The report titled 'Transferring
Privacy' describes how the European Commission leaves European privacy
rights at the mercy of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security.

According to the report the European Commission has 'not assured adequate
protection requirements, clear purpose limitation, non-excessive data
collection, limited data retention time, and insurance against further
transfers beyond the Department of Homeland Security'. The report also
points to the insufficiently independent privacy officers on the US side
that will process complaints from EU passengers and a retention period of
3.5 years.

Privacy International is concerned that other countries under pressure
from the U.S. to weaken their privacy regimes will have lost an ally in
Europe, and will be forced to transfer data under similar, if not worse,
conditions. "The result will be to a race to the bottom for global privacy
protection."

In an included commentary the American Civil Liberties Union worries about
the developments in Europe: "When it comes to privacy protections, we want
to join Europe, not have them join us."

The report describes in detail how the Commission under the leadership of
Bolkestein has agreed in secret that the US may use the PNR data in the
Computer Assisted Passenger Pre-Screening System (CAPPS-II). This system
will profile all passengers using various sources of information including
private sector databases and intelligence information.

The report shows that the conflict over PNR transfer has supporters and
opponents on both sides of the Atlantic: "we are not witnessing a battle
between Europeans and Americans, but a battle between those in Europe and
America who would like to construct an infrastructure for the global
tracking and surveillance of individuals' movements, and those in Europe
and America who believe that such a course is dangerous to freedom and an
unpromising means of stopping terrorists."

The European Data Protection Authorities have published an opinion on the
latest agreements between the EU and the US. The so-called Article 29 Data
Protection Working Party calls the agreement inadequate. Any future and
final agreement should at least limit the use of PNR to fighting acts of
terrorism, the retention period should be shorter and passengers' data
should not be used for implementing and/or testing CAPPS II or similar
systems. The Working Party also calls for a 'truly independent redress
mechanism' instead of the current Privacy Officer at the Department of
Homeland Security.

Transferring Privacy: The Transfer of Passenger Records and the Abdication
of Privacy Protection (02.2004)
http://www.privacyinternational.org/issues/terrorism/rpt/transferringprivacy.pdf

Article 29 Data Protection Working Party: Opinion 2/2004 (29.01.2004)
http://europa.eu.int/comm/internal_market/privacy/docs/wpdocs/2004/wp87_en.pdf

Commission Staff Working Paper on PNR (21.01.2004)
http://www.statewatch.org/news/2004/feb/comm-capps-5589.en04.pdf

Draft undertakings of the Department of Homeland Security Bureau of
Customs and Border Protection (12.01.2004)
http://www.statewatch.org/news/2004/jan/EUUSAG2.pdf

Documents and analysis: Statewatch observatory on the exchange of data on
passengers (PNR) with USA
http://www.statewatch.org/pnrobservatory.htm

News and analysis on PNR and CAPPS-II from the US: Edward Hasbrouck's blog
http://hasbrouck.org/blog/archives/cat_privacy_and_travel.html

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is really just another twist on the p2p/RIAA controversy. This is about new technology which allows old ideologies and policies to resurface in a new disguise. There are issues here, some are even the same as in the p2p/RIAA mess.

I am very aware that this also has to do with the realities of the world we live in and our culture has not yet coped with all of this. OK, perhaps traveller surveillance will make the world safer. Why? Well, obviously not because someone knows YOU are going to France on sunday, but rather this whole idea comes out of the modern tech of datamining. In most cases, this data will be used as historical data. This means that algorithms will work the data and show patterns and trends and spot mysterious characters. Patterns created from continous reworking by intelligent algorithms doing datamining ( product blurb - there is no such thing as intelligent algorithms.. but anyway.. they gotta sell their tech ) will also be applied on live data. One application of this is the prevention of future crime ( PKD: The Minority Report ). We are not far from the scenario PKD showed us. Precog computers will invent a pattern based on the fact that you fit a profile ( and according to the product blurb, the datamining uses dynamic profiles... which in this case means that the profiles will change..often in milliseconds .. some wil have feedback loops which will use the fact that YOU have been spotted to redefine complex relationships in the total sum of data.. and test for new patterns) .. and the moment you buy that ticket.. the precog computer spits out a ball with your name on it. The fate of the poor bastards in Guantamo Bay shows pretty much how the future society will handle suspected criminals.

So far in the new century, we have seen that countries like the US and the UK are using precog for taking out real and imaginary enemies. This is a new trend. The new law in France forbidding the show of religious symbols and clothing at schools is an example of how enemies within are handled. How long will it take before some clever bastard figures out that now.. when the suspicious people are NOT using their traditional garments.. it has become MUCH harder to spot them. The old and effective solution to this has of course already been experienced by jews during WW2.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The reason I post these things is basically because I feel these and similar issues are important. If we artists in some way can create new perspectives, new ways of seing and treating these issues.. well... lucky us..
I guess I am a middle aged radical with serious problems:



Quote:
I got the score:
Economic Left/Right: -7.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.56


http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-1194.html

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I mentioned earlier in this thread that this is also about ideology.

See where these guys are taking GIS:
http://www.directionsmag.com/article.php?article_id=386

Quote:
Revolutionary new GIS technology will help Lancaster City and Township analyze and prevent crime.

Take a bite out of crime®. This phrase, which was made famous by McGruff® the Crime Dog in 1980, started a revolution in the U.S. in which citizens began taking crime prevention into their own hands. That trend continues today in Lancaster, Pa., where the community has taken a more organized approach to preventing crime.

Crime Commission
Under the direction of Mayor Charles Smithgall, the Lancaster Crime Commission was created in August 2000. It works to improve the quality of life in Lancaster, specifically relating to crime control and prevention. The group consists of community members, elected and appointed public servants, and law enforcement officials.

The Commission's 2003 Crime Report suggested that the Lancaster Bureau of Police employ new crime fighting and public safety technologies. Following this advice, the Lancaster City Police Department implemented GeoCAMS in May of this year.

GeoCAMS
GeoCAMS stands for the GeoDecisions® Crime Analysis and Mapping System. It is the flagship law enforcement product of GeoDecisions, an information technology company based in Camp Hill, Pa.


Follow that link and read more.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://projects.bre.co.uk/frsdiv/crimetrends/Crime_Trends_Report.pdf

This file shows basically the old way of thinking about future crime, but with some modern twists.

Anyway, precog crime fighting is not about the crimes, but rather about the suspected criminal. I am sure we will soon see convictions based on precog. This will start slowly, but will soon become a very visible trend. In ths case, I suspect popular culture will adjust to this trend and accept this. I am not convinced people in ten years time will see precog convictions as a problem at all.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think it's right that you post these kinds of topics. They are very relevant to us as artists. I just have a hard time keeping up with all this. Nevertheless, it is helping me clairfy my thinking.

We all see the sense of giving up privacy if it will provide security, and, in the case of artists, protection of our rights to our work. The problem is that there is nobody watching the authorities. History has tought us well that authorities are more dangerous than individuals or groups.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Good point!


Very Happy

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
History has tought us well that authorities are more dangerous than individuals or groups.


PILGER: You still describe yourself as an anarchist, and as a libertarian socialist. To many people these days, these are rather arcane expressions, almost from another age. What do they mean to you?

NOAM CHOMSKY: What they mean is the search for - actually, it’s an outgrowth of classical liberalism. It’s classical liberalism adapted to the modern period. Er it’s anarchism is not a fixed set of ideas; it’s a tendency in human thought that is trying to identify kinds of authority and domination and to, if they can’t justify themselves which they rarely can, to work to overcome them. Er that means overcoming state authority. It also means overcoming the autocracy of er capitalist enterprise, which is simply another form of er hierarchy and domination. It means overcoming sexist repression. Whatever you find. Sometimes authority can be justified. So, for example, you stop a three-year old kid from running across the street into traffic. That’s authority, but I think you can give a justification for it. However, the burden of proof is always on those with the authority. They have to demonstrate that their authority and control is legitimate and that justification can very rarely be given.

Cyx

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I know this argument. OK, he is safe with that one. But what I am on about re the precog business and the datamining is not this.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here's my basic take on it. I've heard alot of chicken little scenereos, not that this is one of them, but I think alot of times there is undue fear and suspicion regarding these kinds of new technologies, and how they may or will be applied against us. This is natural, of course, we always slide to the worst-case-scenareo. It's a useful instinct to develop. Prepare for that, and you'll be ok. That may be effective, but it means alot of time spent being afraid, essentially. Pretraumatic stress disorder.

As far as the datamining and precognitive skills of near-future computers, in a sense where they are applied to automaticly identifying'individuals...'

I think, rationally, this could only be a pull-situation, where an individual in authority has it in for you for whatever reason, and manages to convince people that your patterns of behavior indicate (somehow) guilt or, in the sense that you infer, potential guilt. Probable guilt. "Just look at the results!"

...rather than a push-situation, where your profile pops a red flag, and (metaphorically speaking) balls go rolling into the hands of said authority with your name on one or somesuch. And off they go to round up the preterrorists.

I think we seriously overestemate the capabilities that machines will have over our lives, and in our lifetimes. Apparently, they were ineffective in preventing September 11th. They weren't supposed to.

However. If all the sudden computers started WORKING and never crashed and ran reliably and you never ever ever lost a file and everything is just wonderful and fast and perfect and all of the TV commercials are right! i will become a very nervious man

cyx

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Actually this kind of thing is already in effect in the American public school system as a post Columbine response. Ignoring many of the broader issues that may have influenced those situations, professionals have chosen to focus on identifying 'problem kids' from the time they enter the system. The premise being that its these kids that are the future Kip Kinkles. Figure out who they are, track them, anticipate and intervene and it will never happen again. Software packages have been developed to assist the bureaucrats.

Obviously -at least I hope its obvious - there are a lot of problems with this approach. My biggest problem with it is that it really identifies kids that are simply 'different', period. Non status quo kids. Also the ones that often grow up to be visionaries and catalysts. Not really 'trouble makers', but still often pains in the ass.

It's bound to be fairly successful because it creates self fulfilling prophecies. The tracking programs show that little Johnny is the one. Pass the word on little Johnny. Sure enough, Johnny starts having problems in the eyes of all his teachers, and subsequently his counselors, and casemanagers.

It's not the computers or even the data. It's the built in assumption of what the computer data is going to tell us before it has told us anything and then acting on it with total confidence because it was derived from a sophisticated piece technology.

It's a good testing ground for what may await us all. Shocked Confused

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mezmer wrote:
Obviously -at least I hope its obvious - there are a lot of problems with this approach. My biggest problem with it is that it really identifies kids that are simply 'different', period. Non status quo kids. Also the ones that often grow up to be visionaries and catalysts. Not really 'trouble makers', but still often pains in the ass.

It's not the computers or even the data. It's the built in assumption of what the computer data is going to tell us before it has told us anything and then acting on it with total confidence because it was derived from a sophisticated piece technology.


But that is the problem with it being accepted. It is making predeterminations based on inconclucive data. Let me axk you somethin'.

If someone said to you "Hey! We're going to trust our lives to PCs running Windows95!" what would your response be? I think that is analagous to what society would think of this sort of thing. Remember: governments have only been able to push people so far before it, or both, crumble. The (public) incorporation if this could spell the begining of an American Bastille Day.

And those in power know it. Snail's pace son, so slow they wont even notice. That's why I try to remain calm in the face of alarmism, and focus on the index point of the potential (admitedly) problem. Authority.

Cyx

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I take the Terminator approach, not the Matrix approach.

Cyx

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, it's insidious. Starts on the fringe. Handed to you by professionals that you're supposed to trust.

Our mental health clinic has a deal where the initial diagnosis is done by a computer! You go in while in crisis, complete a questionaire which is fed into a computer and a diagnosis comes out that determines how the clinic will then proceed with you. Not only that, but if the human clinicians subsequent diagnosis does not match the computer's opinion, the clinician is called in by the administrator to answer for themselves! Few know or care about this because it only affects a fringe group that most would rather ignore anyway.

The first crusade was against Christians. The first final solution was against non-Jewish Germans. But against groups that few cared about or even noticed, or that could be rationalized. It grew from there. It could be Bastille Day or it could be the Salem witch trials.

It's not you and me. We're already aware. It's those - the many unfortunately - that don't have a clue. Or don't want to have a clue - even worse.

Hope you're right. Actually the best approach is to not be noticed at all.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mezmer wrote:
Well, it's insidious. Starts on the fringe. Handed to you by professionals that you're supposed to trust.

It's not you and me. We're already aware. It's those - the many unfortunately - that don't have a clue. Or don't want to have a clue - even worse.

Hope you're right. Actually the best approach is to not be noticed at all.


oh. being noticed is not an option in any case.

But either way, the problem is not the tool, it is the user and their susceptibility to abuse that presents the problem.

That is what a problem is. A problem is a situation presented you which is, in some form or fashion, dictated by some entity with some form of power over you. That is the real struggle. Aside, perhaps, from motive, which could be used to identify merit, everything else, such as the tools they use, the rate of attack (if any), the severity, these are all satelites of the real problem. I am interested in the real problem. The source. I do not ignore the satelites, how can you be lucid and ignore?

My method is very very simple. Identify every problem as a symptom. A symptom of what? Well, of the real problem. Oh. OK. And what is that a symptom of? A different problem. And I continue this regression until I can reason no further, reaching an irreducible problem, and THAT is what I choose to deal with. Cool

Cyx

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

As I see it, the whole concept is setup to destroy itself. The fact is that people don't really fit into algorithms, or at least not ones that computers are capable of handling. Something that authorities who would like to abuse this technology are going to have to overcome is the lashback when it becomes obvious that predictive algorithms don't work to any significant degree of accuracy. Congress has already pulled funding for Pointdexters sci-fi/horror Total Information Awareness project, and those shmegma heads are usually happy to pour taxpayer's money into wacky defense plans. Awareness by the general public can be stalled by controlling commercial media but it won't last forever. Peope know how to talk to each other and they're getting better at it all the time.

To me, it's obvious that more advanced technology is just a temporarily convincing cover for authoritarianism. There have been many other red-herrings. Terrorism comes to mind, for one. I'm gonna go with Marx on this one and say that the problem here stems from class distinction. Thousands of people a year are imrpisoned because they were born into a rigged game. That's, I think, a more central problem.

To use Cyxeris' method, class war is really a symtpom of a deeper and more personal fear of the unknown. Perhaps I'm just ranting now but...OK I'm ranting. The "irreducible problem" or, at least, one of them is definitely fear of the unkown or fear of death which is the same thing. That and the fear of being alone is what causes people to pretend to see fault so great in others that they feel justified in stealing their freedom. Um...right? Just add your own logical path from A to B, any will do.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

noiseusse wrote:
The "irreducible problem" or, at least, one of them is definitely fear of the unkown or fear of death which is the same thing. That and the fear of being alone is what causes people to pretend to see fault so great in others that they feel justified in stealing their freedom. Um...right? Just add your own logical path from A to B, any will do.


I would characterize fear of the unknown more as a condition or a circumstance. Would we say it is an instinct? It could be argued, I guess, that fear of the unknown is responsible for a respectible percentage of successes in the game of natural selection, for example. A possitive example that could be reasoned out, and make sense. Fear of the unknown prevents you from drinking any old liquid you come across, EVEN if you're in college. You dont know what it is. It's nature is unknown, and you have a health-conscious fear of it thus.

Death is unique in that it's the one thing we can all fear together, because we're all going to share the experience of it. In the future. So we dread it, together. It's a universal experience. No doubt partly responsible for the widespread "we'll, just wait til we die and see who's right, Missy!" nature of so many religions. The unknown offers ample working space for creative and restless minds, and there will certainly always be fear involved. I mean, it's one thing to hate someone because they're of a different race, and the whole thing originates in fear and is completely unfounded and driven by social and cultural and economic bullshit, but that is not rooted in the unknown. That is hate rooted in fear rooted in bullshit. What is the bullshit rooted in?

So I would say that for the provided pair of problems, fear of the unknown is beyond the irreducable problem, and is not part of the path from A to B, and couldn't be used in the regression from the stealing of freedoms and the fear of being alone, even if you really really really want for it to be.

Now, with regards to the topic at hand, personal information datamined by machines as a tool for crime probability projections, in school or general law enforcement, is not irreducable. It is only a problem, a potential problem at that, rooted in it's use. It's use? Hmm, that would indicate a user. And users have motives. In this instance, that user is currently unclear, but it's a safe bet that we're talking about an authority of some form, obviously. So if you want to see the shooting star, it's invaluable to know where in the sky it will streak. In the instance of the afore mentioned erosion of privacy and freedom, as best as I can tell, that patch of sky is called "authority." That's where to look.

From there it gets tricky, however, because we don't have all the details and we don't have all the information, and there are these unknowns and anything can happen and we know that those in power, those in authority, have demonstrated that they cannot be trusted and we don't know what will happen and we are afraid of that, afraid of the unknown. Alarm, and more fear, ensue.

That's simply not how I do business.

Cyx

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
So I would say that for the provided pair of problems, fear of the unknown is beyond the irreducable problem, and is not part of the path from A to B, and couldn't be used in the regression from the stealing of freedoms and the fear of being alone, even if you really really really want for it to be.


Ok. Maybe the fear of being alone was a little off target but I can pull off the fear of the unkown in three simple steps.

"I am afraid of what I do not know."
"You are unfamiliar to me therefore I am afraid of YOU."
"I will imprison you so that you can do me no harm."

Granted, it's much more complicated than that but there's the basic outline. Have you read any interviews with soldiers in Iraq? This train of thought is all too apparent there. The problem then is not fear of the unknown but rather the repression of this fear. If we find ourselves in a situation where we're afraid, we can either acknowledge it and move on or act completely on reflex and lash out in a display of fight or flight. It's the lizard mind that causes authority to lash out like this because authority doesn't have higher brain functions. It can only react.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

noiseusse wrote:
It's the lizard mind that causes authority to lash out like this because authority doesn't have higher brain functions. It can only react.


I dont know that this is a fair characterization of authority. It's folly to mistake evil for idiocy. Insofar as the reptilian mind, you are correct. It can only react, and it does, but it is reason and rationality, the rational mind, which we have available to us to decide whether to maintain logic and rationality, or to step aside and let the snake drive the car. That applies to all of us.

Concerning the datamining, however, I dont think fear is even that great of a driving component. I think it's founded on greed and power. Power and greed. The fear comes in when it comes time to control us. Drugs! Crime! Terror! OK, citizens, tighten those belts, we all better pony up and offer those liberties on the alter of safety and security. Here, here's you're alter, we'll be by on Tuesdays to pick them up, and we will keep you aaaaaaaaall safe!

Making off like bandits. Literally.

Cyx

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Authority is not about stupidity at all, but stupidity can of course be involed.. as it is a part of most things humans do.




Quote:
Concerning the datamining, however, I dont think fear is even that great of a driving component. I think it's founded on greed and power. Power and greed. The fear comes in when it comes time to control us. Drugs! Crime! Terror! OK, citizens, tighten those belts, we all better pony up and offer those liberties on the alter of safety and security.


Many of the agendas which are again the reason why datamining and computer precog is being done.. are of course based on fear. One basic problem is that many of the policies the US and UK are still following are also using fear as well as generating more fear.

Precog crimefighting datamining allows selfmodelling patterns, based on scary scenarios, search for complex systems in the data, also using live realtime input, and this hopefully results in new "knowledge" about the real enemy. This is of course not anything like the usual oldstyle intelligence work where agents and agenies actually were stalking real physical enemies.

In the precog world, you lean on the old ideas about crimeprevention, and your goal is getting the bastards.. any bastards.. before they get you. This means that we EXPECT the bastards to be out there and working hard at whatever these evil bastards do when they do their thing. This means we already are expecting the bad shit to be on its way at full steam.. in the general direction of the big fan.
So.. this is not about reality. This is not about telling your kid that if he kicks other kids, some of those might kick back - nice behaviour is smart.. then other people will love you. This is about using a "new" ideology to fight expected responses from enemies.. without changing our own ways.
So... the only problem with like.. our foreign policy.. is that some terrorist bastards don´t like it. We will NOT change the policy, we wil instead take out the bastards.
Precog crimefighting is also about imagined enemies.. or persons which fits the profile of being an enemy. And the profile might change from second to second.
My main reason for starting this thread is my concern with the underlying ideology. I am not going to claim we will soon see 1984 or Animal Farm being turned into reality in the near future. That happened already and probably long before 1984. I am frightened by what I see as a new ideology which will soon be a part of our culture.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
I am frightened by what I see as a new ideology which will soon be a part of our culture.


What, the "I don't see what's really hapening, I see what I want to see?" ideology? That's already here. Big-time. It's media-driven. Here's an exmple of how we assume people are talking about what we imagine they're talking about and how what we imagine is placed there by television.

About three days after WTC bombing, I went around my old neigborhood and did little video interviews with college students partying on their porches. The last question in a series of completely unrelated questions was "Should we bomb them?" The response being "Yes", or "No" but never "Bomb who?". The US media was indicting Afghanistan.

Here's a transcripition of one interview:

me: "Should we bomb them?"
her: "Yes, we should bomb the fucking shit out of them."
me: "Who should we bomb?"
her: "Um...the afghans or the pakistans. One of those A-rabs. Don't get me wrong, I mean, I'm part A-rab myself."

I tried to inform her that afghan was a kind of blanket and A-rab was a derogatory term but to no avail. This is another example of the lizard mind. These days, in lieu of actual threats, it's fueled by media images. If one can reason out how the lizard-mind will react, one can control it. Just like traps where you scare an animal and it flees into your net.

You guys thought by lizard-brain I meant idiot. Not so. I meant primal instincts for the most part, which have a most brutal logic. They are by no means stupid they just aren't a replacement for an aware individual (unless they're being chased by a mountain lion).
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

noiseusse wrote:
What, the "I don't see what's really hapening, I see what I want to see?" ideology? .


Not exactly. But you make some excellent points here.
I was thinking more in the line of an ideology which transforms to a culture which allows taking out enemies to be. This is the ultimate in preemptive warfare. Take out the bastards even before they know they don´t´like you. This is also about allowing the "state" whatever that is, to take the full responsibility about ridding the world of vermin, and about accepting this to the fullest.

Yes, this does play in the same league as sending jews, teachers, socialists, writers, composers and homosexuals off to death camps.
"Entartete kunst" anyone?


Your story does in fact support my ideas, but also shows that the "public" are already prone to accept and demand whatever with no regard to decency. That girl you told about, she is probably the ideal victim of the next strong leader willing to give the voters what they are asking for.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
You guys thought by lizard-brain I meant idiot. Not so. I meant primal instincts for the most part, which have a most brutal logic. They are by no means stupid they just aren't a replacement for an aware individual (unless they're being chased by a mountain lion).


Actually, I am using the "reptillian brain" to denote the medulla and hypothalamus, with some unhealthy misguidance from the cerebrum, and in no way am I trying to imply stupidity, not more than a snake is stupid for not understanding fluid dynamics or the scientific method.

Cyx

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Last edited by Cyxeris on Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, the cruel logic.. yeah..
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Your story does in fact support my ideas, but also shows that the "public" are already prone to accept and demand whatever with no regard to decency. That girl you told about, she is probably the ideal victim of the next strong leader willing to give the voters what they are asking for.


THe irony is that voters like her aren't asking for anything. Or rather, they will ask for whatever they are told to ask for by their TV, their school-system, their church, etc.

The whole pre-emptive warfare concept has been in effect in this country for a long time. Not quite at the level of precog computers but witness, for instance, MKULTRA and COINTELPRO during the civil rights movement. Those projects are still around but under different names now with more funding. Lots of people are targeted for police harassment because they're assumed ideologies pose a threat to the established order.

It's a war of ideology, really. What some are calling the memewar. Whoever gets their message out loudest and to the highest number of impressionable people wins. When media is the primary source of peoples thoughts, then whoever controls thhe media controls the power.

That's why I love the internet so much. It's a (largely) unregulated medium. In order to counter the strategies of ruthless authority, we have to change the source from which people acquire their information. If everyone read libertythink.com or thememoryhole.org instead of watcing CNN, think how different the world would be. Not to say those websites are right, necessarily. It's just that their motives are diametrically opposed to those of corporate controlled media.
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