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Scott Stites/Buchla 291 adaptation
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andrewF



Joined: Dec 29, 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Fernando
i'm a bit new here too but ... Welcome!

i just printed out Scott's Modified Buchla 291 Filter, looks like it will be my next project - thanks Scott, this will be part of a mini-synth with the SN-voice
I have some Macron 'vactrols' that were made in Hong Kong,
http://www.macron.com.hk/optocoupler_mi0202cl.htm
sent to me as free samples that i have never used but the time has come.

Andrew
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wow! I've never heard of Macron optocouplers. Ought to be an interesting project, indeed!

Cheers,
Scott
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Fernando



Joined: Dec 30, 2006
Posts: 207
Location: Barcelona, Spain

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi and thank you.

It would be interesting to have some specs of the Macron optocouplers, at least
-off res.
-1V res.
-5V res.
-10V resistance
-aproximate attack and release times.

And, were can be purchased?

I can't connect well to their site. It is very slow or erratic or something...


...maybe, the Bergfors vactrol control circuit could be a reference we could use to measure vactrol responses. The values for the Silonex SR3S are given already on the schematic...
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:
here's the link:

http://mypeoplepc.com/members/scottnoanh/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/dim291_266_2.mp3

9.7 MB. Yep.


It kind of makes one wonder if the Morton Subotnick sound was entirely his, or purely down to Don Buchla and his low-pass gate design?

I suppose in 1967 few people had heard a sample and hold circuit?
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Fernando wrote:
I can't connect well to their site. It is very slow or erratic or something...


with 5000 members on E-M, I wonder why Rolling Eyes Laughing

(I didn't have a problem this morning- before the USA woke up Wink
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
It kind of makes one wonder if the Morton Subotnick sound was entirely his, or purely down to Don Buchla and his low-pass gate design?


IMHO, I think Subtonick and the Buchla 100, later the 200, certainly complemented each other quite well on those early recordings. Pretty much like the Fender Stratocaster and Hendrix complemented each other. Very Happy


Quote:
I suppose in 1967 few people had heard a sample and hold circuit?


That's a good question! When did the S&H become ubiquitous for musical purposes - pre or post Buchla system 100? Do you know, Howard?

Cheers,
Scott
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andrewF



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Fernando
Macron have quite a range of different models, see if you can get onto this page -
http://www.macron.com.hk/specification.htm

The ones I have go -
on Res. - 700ohm
off Res. - 1M
rise time - 3.5msec
decay time- 500msec

I originally bought a handful of the MI 0202s in Akihabara, I emailed the company for some info and they kindly sent out a dozen samples of MI 65s.

To be honest the only thing I've done with them so far is trade some for a few real vactrols!
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:
Pretty much like the Fender Stratocaster and Hendrix complemented each other. Very Happy


Quote:
I suppose in 1967 few people had heard a sample and hold circuit?


That's a good question! When did the S&H become ubiquitous for musical purposes - pre or post Buchla system 100? Do you know, Howard?



Yes, but a Strat doesn't play itself (unless of course it has been left in the path of a hurricane and wired-up to a 100 watt stack Very Happy )- unlike an s&h circuit does?

I suppose the first time sample and hold was heard by the masses was by people like ELP (the LP Brain Salad Surgery (awful name! Laughing ) had a sample and hold at the beginning- but nothing as cool as Subotnick's)? Then there were Jazz recordings too- like Raindance by Herbie Hancock (no electro music freak should be without this record!) and other early experimental jazz recordings (David Durrah?). Mort Garson's "Electronic Hair pieces" (based on the musical) also springs to mind.

All of the above were late 60's early 70's. Who pioneered Sample and Hold? Was it Buchla? Phillips?? Confused
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Yes, but a Strat doesn't play itself (unless of course it has been left in the path of a hurricane and wired-up to a 100 watt stack )- unlike an s&h circuit does?


A S&H will make noise with the aid of other modules, just as a Strat will with the aid of a nearby amplifier set to 11.

But, actually I was referring to the entire instrument rather than the S&H itself. In truth, S&H on a Buchla system is quite outshadowed by all of the other available elements in the control structure. Even the S&H I used on that piece was just one small function taken from a list of functions the 266 SOU had to offer.

We both know S&H will actually not play itself - it takes a bit of programming, albeit simple as that may be: plug a source voltage into it, plug a clock source into it, and plug the output into something else. There lies the rub. What should clock it? What source voltage should I use? What should the S&H control? What should control its clock? Where does it fit into the piece? Should I use it at all? With the overwhelming possibilities available to him, to me the genius of those early works is that it's as much about what Subotnick did with the instrument as what he *didn't* do with the instrument.

Cheers,
Scott
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funkyfarm



Joined: Jan 21, 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

fonik wrote:
what about mark verbos's adaption:
http://www.simple-answer.com/291.pdf


Scott Stites wrote:
Here you go, this one should work fine. It's got the Verbos buffers, the high and low pass tap points/outputs, and the input mixer.


Hey dear all !

Can anybody find the 2N3566 datasheet ?
(or the pinouts for a TO-105 transistor)

We've build here two of this filter (trying to drop some pix) and have problem with the transistor implementation on verbos' pcb...

FF
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It's a general purpose NPN transistor - same pinout as a 2N3904 (in fact, I've used those in the circuit before). Looking at the transistor 'flat side' facing you, pins down, the pinout is EBC.

Here is what Mouser presents as a datasheet for it, it's a different number, but same pinout and specs:

http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/PN%2FPN2369.pdf

Cheers,
Scott
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:
to me the genius of those early works is that it's as much about what Subotnick did with the instrument as what he *didn't* do with the instrument.


I remember reading somewhere that he became a little over-obsessive with the Music Box. Working 365 days of the year. Can you picture all that tape??? Shocked
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numbernone



Joined: Aug 16, 2006
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Location: new york city

PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

One for those a little brighter than this dim bulb (read all of you Wink ).

I have drawn up an adptation of the Verbos PCB, which includes Scott's excellent additions. It conforms to the most recently posted schematic, and I have managed to fit it onto an PCB Express mini board (CHEAP!!!). My question regards caps #11-16, I am having a real pain of a time trying to work these into my layout. I see that they are not included in Mark's version. I have a vague idea of them keeping the power solid to all of the IC's, but am hoping someone may shed some light on them. I REALLY wanna keep it all on the puny little board, and want to know how big of an explosion I can expect if they are left out.

Thanks all.
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Fernando



Joined: Dec 30, 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:14 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Numbernone,
if that means you'll order a batch of PCBs, count on me for some (are they single or double filter like Mark's?)

Also, it could be great that the board can be held by two of the pots, pref. freq and BW (oh please)

(in fact I would preffer the board have a single filter and two on-board pots than two filters...)

Fernando
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numbernone



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

As I am a little unsure of my abilities as far as PCB design goes, I would prefer to just upload my layout for everyones use. Granted that is only after I have tested it out and found it to be spot on. Then you could fudge it for PCB mount pots etc. as it stands I am gonna have to do a bit more to make space for mounting hardware and so forth, its very TIGHT. Only a single filter on the board, it is only 2.5 by 3.8 inches. Once someone can fill me in on the need for all the extra caps, I will get my order going and let ya all know whats up.

So lets hear about C11-C16!!!!
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Fernando



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

all right.

I'm very sorry I can't help with that... Hopefully Scott or someone will be here soon =:s

I'm electronically impaired and an absolute mess in layout matters but those caps look like plain op amp decoupling, normally placed very close to each chip and often on the solder side.
Maybe http://www.cgs.synth.net/ for a bunch of schematic <--> pcb layout...
Ken now use SMD capacitors on the solder side...

that's what I can suggest so far...

(but... 2.5x3.8 = 9.5 sq inches. The smaller pcb limit is 9''...)
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numbernone



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeh I figured they were just extra decouplers or something, but found them strangely absent from the Verbos design, that one just using the big electros. Anyhow its good fun trying to figure all this stuff out dont ya know...
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You'll probably be fine leaving them off.

Generally, it's a fairly common practice to bypass IC's with 0.1 uF caps (some people prefer 0.01, but that's a whole different debate). The idea is that the IC may suddenly be called on to supply more current than the inductance of the trace will momentarily allow. The bypass caps act as a sort of resevoir to supply that current while the other electrons are being hassled by the Henrys.

You'll notice the rails pass through a ten ohm resistor, which is another add-on. See any design by Ken Stone to get a grip on what that's all about.

Anyway, I'm betting you probably won't notice any difference - the Buchla design didn't have them, and the extra stuff isn't doing anything more outrageous than the original circuit. If, for some reason, you would need to add them, they could be tacked on later - they're pretty small.

Cheers,
Scott
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Fernando



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi all, I just drawed (manually) the Volts vs Resistance table in Bergfors schematic (*) for the Silonex NSL-32SR3 and I got a nice exponential curve.

So, if anyone build his filter and/or just the vactrol control circuit, it would be very interesting to compare the NSL-32SR3 vs VTL5C3 curves... (V vs R)

(*)
http://hem.bredband.net/bersyn/VCBPF%20Bergfotron.png
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

FWIW, I get pretty good V/Oct with the expo sink I used in the Mutant and the Phase Shifter as well.

Cheers,
Scott
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funkyfarm



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:03 pm    Post subject:  Great Thanks ! Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Hey dear all !

Can anybody find the 2N3566 datasheet ?
(or the pinouts for a TO-105 transistor)

We've build here two of this filter (trying to drop some pix) and have problem with the transistor implementation on verbos' pcb...


Scott Stites wrote:
It's a general purpose NPN transistor - same pinout as a 2N3904 (in fact, I've used those in the circuit before). Looking at the transistor 'flat side' facing you, pins down, the pinout is EBC.

Here is what Mouser presents as a datasheet for it, it's a different number, but same pinout and specs:

http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/PN%2FPN2369.pdf

Cheers,
Scott


Great !!!
thank you Scott

Both filters work now with 2n3904 !

I didn't manage to work it out with the original 3566, will give another try later...

Are you all satisfied with the CV response ?

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
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funkyfarm



Joined: Jan 21, 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:10 pm    Post subject: 291 samples Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here's a short example with BandPass output :

(fast) manual sweep

LFO into CF CV IN

ADSR into BW CV IN

EnvFollwer into FM CV IN


291_BPF_SOFT_SYNC.wav
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funkyfarm



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:19 pm    Post subject: 291 samples Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

And another interesting sound from "the other 291 french adaptation"...
with AD633 ring modulator from here


633_291shining.wav
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Fernando



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for the pictures and samples (very cool!)

about the CV response... maybe Scott or someone explored it's limits...

I think the Buchla uses 10V for CV, are you using this range?
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funkyfarm



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:40 pm    Post subject:
Subject description: 291 styro caps
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By the way, I have here 100 encumbering pieces of 900pF Styroflex caps.

I will throw them soon !

If anyone is interested for this project, only shipping fees...

although only one is needed ?!

funkyfarm, paris.
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