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 Forum index » Discussion » Diversity in electro-music
Some of my thoughts
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:54 am    Post subject: Some of my thoughts Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I thought I'd list some of my thoughts seperately, instead of deviding them over multiple sub-topics which doesn't do coherency much good.

I'd first like to talk about EM as a site. EM, in practice, runs on a small group of regular posters who post most of the information, answer most of the questions and generally have a huge influence on the overall mood. I've met some of those in person and corresponded with most of the others. There have been some notes in this section about EM not being sufficiently open to girls and women; a "men's world" and I don't believe that's true as such. I don't think anybody has tried this in practice but based on my experience with these regulars (many of whom are also editors) I believe that anybody who would realy try to treat somebody as less welcome (or capable of writing music, etc) based on gender would imediately be "jumped" verbally and made to understand that that's not welcome here. Basically I feel EM is about as encumbered by traditional notions about men and women as it is by traditional notions about music, there are many sites that are far worse in this regard.

Admittedly there will be the odd joke about genders but those, if you look carefully, ar made at the expense of both and concepts like nationality and religion will also be joked about. This seems quite natural and healthy to me.

Why, then, are we seeing such a small percentage of females in the members list? it must be asked. Doesn't that point at EM being unapealing to women? Frankly I don't think it does. I think what we are seening a refelction of is that in Western society (and EM -so far- is mainly about western forms of music, that's another issue we might want to look into) far less women then men are making electronic music. More interesting than blaming ourselves for what we are doing so obviously wrong (a idea that strikes me as typically Protestant Christian and not that productive) would then be trying to find what causes this.

I suspect that hormones, as already discussed, are definately a factor. Testosterone, for all it's negative effects, also seems to lead to certain types of ambition, making men more likely to be more open about their projects and give them a greater desire to push those projects further. Another matter is courtship. According to some pre-historians music itself arose out of young men trying to apeal to women. Fortunately those factors are breaking down in the modern world; girls court boys instead in many cases and many women are very ambitious.

I would predict that if we simply do what we are doing now in the same way for a few decades we'll see a slow shift towards a higher percentage of female EM-ers, simply because that's the direction culture is going in.... asuming we don't see "neo-concervatism" and "family values" taking a odd and regretable turn.

This likely isn't good enough for us because decades are long and apparently we want a change sooner.

At this point we must look at what some of the limiting factors -as experienced by women- are for starting out making electronic music. I'm now getting on thin ice because I can only base my ideas on some of my own female friends that saw my own enthousiasm with electronic music and thought they might want to try their hand a t it. Those tended to say they felt electronic music being such a "men's world" turned them off. Not nesicarily a world of sexist men, I should add. What seemed to be a issue is that to get started one would need to ask questions and basically be forced to ask those to men which would then reinforce traditional gender roles while demostrating independance seemed to be a part of the desire to get into the field.

I freely admit that I'm basing this on a very small sample-set so there is a huge margin of error but the proposed solution was realy quite intersting. The same young women would sugest that a remedy would be workshops or cources aimed at getting started, tought by a woman and only open to women.

To me that sounds like a delightfully straightforward idea that would be easy to try. In fact I would've tried it myself already hadn't I been equiped with the wrong set of genitals to try this, at least I brought it to the atention of some very knowledgable female composers as well as a few organisations that give workshops with some regularity.

If that is (one of) the important issue(s) afecting this matter I don't think this new section is the answer. It's certainly good for talking *about* gender-roles in music but it doesn't match what I found people longed for as a place for women to get started. We could obviously make a "gender" field in the profiles and lock the section but I don't think everybody is comfortable identifying with either gender and even if we would do that I think it would be experienced as a sort od "kiddy pool" because it is in fact a sub-section of a existing forum. Much better, I think, would be a seperate forum altogether, if that is realy the effect we want to achieve.

Right now what we have seems to cater to a few needs that -to me- don't seem to line up that productively. We saw some complaints about roles asumed by females in EM events that I felt weren't representative and arose from practically rather then gender clasifications, we've seen a lot of debate that I think relates to (women in) society as a whole more then it links to the role of women in electronic music speciffically and would be better off in a section on social trents and we've seen some amount of discussion (not just in this section but also in others and predating the creation of this section) that I think comes from hetrosexual males being atracted to female performers. In some ways I think this very section is quite sexist in nature and if a new topic is created with the express purpose of not covering sexist topics while proposing to discuss the sense of dress of female performers I'm left to wonder wether that has much chance of changing. We seem to be atempting to bring about equality by means of clasification.

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bernat



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So, action items I gathered from your post:

    figure out what causes the uneven gender split.
    determine if limiting factors exist. if so, find remedies.
    electro workshops for women / by women


Nice. Thanks.

For the first item, perhaps a limiting factor is that uneven gender split is self-perpetuating instead of an intentionally sexist social construct. Example, I hadn't regularly posted in the rest of the forum until Beth posted about it in a facebook group ("Electro for girls").

I like that this subforum addresses the issue of gender up front so that its not a subtle taboo subject ... where there's not much danger of having a minority opinion wanting to talk about the issue. Not to say that women are afraid of being in the minority (perhaps people in general). Just saying an openly welcoming community is more rewarding to frequent.

2 cents spent.
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deknow



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

...an interesting topic. i'll play devils advocate for a second:

1. do women perhaps have more important things to do than spend their time making electronic music?

2. on almost every forum/email list i'm on, it's the men that do almost all the arguing (semantic, political, religious, etc)...should we set up an initiative to remedy this? to draw more women into online arguments? is this related to em making? my point/question is, "do we need to equalize every possible activitiy between the sexes? should we also have an initiative to, say, get more men into childcare (my guess would be that most people paying for childcare would say no...as people are generally less comfortable with men watching childern than women).

3. "how to make electronic music" used to be primarily about getting access to gear with which to do so...now everyone has access to computers, and therefore the tools to write/produce/record major works. em is such a broad concept...pure synthesis, realtime coding, processing of acoustic/elecric/electronic instruments, arraning found sounds, diy electronics, etc. there is certainly plenty of "self help" for any of these approaches online for anyone to get started in the privacy of their livingroom, without subjecting their first experements to a teacher or the public in general. i really don't see any external barriers to getting started....are we "imposing" something on women that they generally don't want by trying to draw them in to em? certainly i meet lots of men that _want_ to do things (including making em) that never get around to it, never figure out how to approach, etc....aren't some barriers to starting out any venture a good thing?

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bernat



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:
..now everyone has access to computers, and therefore the tools to write/produce/record major works. em is such a broad concept...pure synthesis, realtime coding, processing of acoustic/elecric/electronic instruments, arraning found sounds, diy electronics, etc.


You're kidding, right...? I really hope this is part of the devil's advocate thing and not actually what you/others in electro believe.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

...i'm not kidding at all. certainly, not every person on the planet has a laptop, but at least here in the us, computers are everywhere...schools, libraries, thrift stores, work, on the curb, etc. simply having access to a studio at odd hours was the main reason many people used to take shitty studio jobs....now with a few weeks pay at a shitty gas station job one can buy their own setup.

free (and shareware) software like audiomulch, the g2demo, goldwave, and loads of free vsts (as well as free vst authoring software like synthedit) are readily avaialble.

microphones, mixing boards, guitar pedals, outboard processing, digital recorders....these are all cheap in todays market.

what barrier do you see that i'm missing?

deknow
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

...another thought. now that there is a "women in electro-music" forum, why are the two women that are very active on that forum _not_ on the rest of electro-music in any significant way? both of your posts have been almost exculsively about gender issues. do either of you make music? have you posted any? do you have questions? a startling discovery? a performance coming up? a project you want input on?

what are the barriers keeping your discussion almost exclusively on the women in em forum?

i am not trying to attack anyone...and it should be fairly obvious that i'm in favor of women being involved. but from here (and i've been scarce at the forum recently, so forgive me if i missed something), you and bbinkovitz seem to saying that it is somehow difficult for women to be here. well, both of you (i think) are technically skilled, have participated in a couple of em events, are on the forum. ....what other barrier still exists to keep you from discussing other (even musical or technical) topics?

imho, you change things by doing, not talking....so do! (i say that in an encouraging tone, not a commanding one).

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bernat



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:
...i'm not kidding at all. certainly, not every person on the planet has a laptop, but at least here in the us, computers are everywhere...schools, libraries, thrift stores, work, on the curb, etc. simply having access to a studio at odd hours was the main reason many people used to take shitty studio jobs....now with a few weeks pay at a shitty gas station job one can buy their own setup.

free (and shareware) software like audiomulch, the g2demo, goldwave, and loads of free vsts (as well as free vst authoring software like synthedit) are readily avaialble.

microphones, mixing boards, guitar pedals, outboard processing, digital recorders....these are all cheap in todays market.

what barrier do you see that i'm missing?

deknow


Um, disposable time and income to get access to education and libraries certainly doesn't include everyone. I'd even venture to say that the middle class and above are actually in the minority.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

are implying that society is so oppressive that people don't have time to persue their interests? or that it takes some kind of education more than a basic working knowledge of computers in order to explore making music?

i would strongly disagree with the above. in fact, i'm not even really sure how have a discussion, as it seems so obvious to me that most kids grow up around computers (even if they are not in the home), have the basic computer skills to play around with graphic, video, and audio arts, and mostly have access to computers. adults (imho) are responsible for figuring out their own lives, and there are many ways to live if one doesn't want to work 70 hours a week (although perhaps in a smaller house).

i will say that my male ansestors (and i would bet those of most reading this) had less free time than i do. my female ansestors had much more "free" time (if that qualifies, some also had a lot of responsibility)....but they were also burdened by being in a society where it was nearly impossible for them to take care of themselves without being married. i'd say that's progress.

according to neilson ratings, the average american watches 4 hours of tv a day. ...that doesn't sound like a busy society to me.

playing electronic music does not require a special eductiaon. i would say that there are probably more composers who have no musical background in the world today than there have ever been. that may not say so much for the state of music (although it might), but it does speak to the accessibility of the tools, and the general attitude of experementation.

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bernat



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:
are implying that society is so oppressive that people don't have time to persue their interests? or that it takes some kind of education more than a basic working knowledge of computers in order to explore making music?


Ever meet a member of "the working poor"?

Perhaps you aren't familiar with it because people who work minimum wage or less don't troll forums like this starting topics like "minimum wage sucks. should i pay for rent or food and a car? wish list: health insurance and childcare. thank god i never want to retire."
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:
not every person on the planet has a laptop, but at least here in the us


This implies that nearly everyone does. Who knows how many people out of the nearly 7 billion people in the world own a computer? People who own a computer are definitely in the minority. I didn't own a functional computer until earlier this month, and I probably still wouldn't if my job didn't provide one.

Quote:
computers are everywhere...schools, libraries, thrift stores, work, on the curb, etc.


This has a lot of prerequisites.

1. Transportation to public computing facilities. Quite an obstacle if you don't own a car and live in an area far removed from these city resources. When faced with this, getting to public computing takes quite a bit of time and money that so many people simply don't have.

2. Setting up and using a computer takes specific education. American public schools are incredible failures. I'm doubtful that most children even in the United States, supposedly (one of) the leaders in technology and economy, are given an adequate amount of education to set up and use a computer to make electronic music in school and in their spare time.

3. If for some reason the computer itself is free, it still requires additional income for maintenance and the monthly internet bill.

Why would any of this be a priority when so many people are struggling just to meet basic expenses for themselves and their family?

Quote:
simply having access to a studio at odd hours was the main reason many people used to take shitty studio jobs....now with a few weeks pay at a shitty gas station job one can buy their own setup.


Again, a luxury for someone with no responsibility to children or family.

Quote:
free (and shareware) software like audiomulch, the g2demo, goldwave, and loads of free vsts (as well as free vst authoring software like synthedit) are readily avaialble.


Perhaps, but you have to know about them to use them. I've never heard about them until just now and I consider myself "computer literate".

Quote:
microphones, mixing boards, guitar pedals, outboard processing, digital recorders....these are all cheap in todays market.


More luxuries for people with disposable income or people with good credit and selfish priorities.
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bernat wrote:

Perhaps you aren't familiar with it because people who work minimum wage or less don't troll forums like this starting topics like "minimum wage sucks. should i pay for rent or food and a car? wish list: health insurance and childcare. thank god i never want to retire."


It's absolutely true that there are many people who can't afford a computer (but I'd image they won't be able to afford a car or childeren either because both cars and childeren are MUCH more expensive then computers). This is very depressing considdering the wealth that some others own but if those people don't make electronic music and don't post on EM for lack of a computer, a net conection, time and perhaps literacy then I think we can safely rule out gender issues.

BTW, a lot of early Detroid house was written on extremely small budgets, the same goes for The Hague acid; a lot of that was written by people living in squads and with no regular income at all, recorded to semi-broken castette tape.

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bernat



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
It's absolutely true that there are many people who can't afford a computer (but I'd image they won't be able to afford a car or childeren either because both cars and childeren are MUCH more expensive then computers).


Also sadly, "affording children" and having children isn't a package deal. Can I get a "what what" from all the single moms out there? What? Oh.

Quote:
if those people don't make electronic music and don't post on EM for lack of a computer, a net conection, time and perhaps literacy then I think we can safely rule out gender issues.


We can rule out gender issues from that? Sweet. Subforum closed.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bernat wrote:

Again, a luxury for someone with no responsibility to children or family.


True, but that's a choice you can make. Nobody forces you to have childeren, nobody even forces you to have a partner. While I was learning about electronic music I was intentionally celibate and isolated in order to be able to focus on that as I felt it was more important and more interesting.

Anyway, it seems to me that you realy want to talk about the way wealth is devided and how it affects musicianship as opposed to how gender affects being a musician, is that right?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bernat wrote:

Also sadly, "affording children" and having children isn't a package deal. Can I get a "what what" from all the single moms out there? What? Oh.


Well, maybe in the US where abortion is frowned on and sex-education is on the verge of illegal. The current state of the US is very sad indeed, according to the definition of a third-world country (which is concerend with the devide between rich and poor) the US is a third world country. You are very right to point these factors out, I agree that they need a lot more exposure but I don't realy see them as all that relevant to the discussion at hand.

Quote:

We can rule out gender issues from that? Sweet. Subforum closed.


I meant we can rule out gender issues afecting wether that speciffic group of people will post to EM.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

...you might want to know more about me before you make assumptions of who i am and how i live.

i'm not sure what you are so angry about, "there have always been poor". if you want to solve that problem, go ahead, but i'm not really sure how it relates to "women and em" outside that some women are poor, and have less opurtunities than others....some men are poor too, this isn't a gender issue or divide, it's a general problem that seems to exist in all populations of people, animals, and plants. i'm not calous or uncaring, but this is how it is. if you want all of the 7 billion people on the planet to have the ability to make electronic music, i think you have the wrong goals.

Quote:
2. Setting up and using a computer takes specific education.

do you spend any time with kids? kids know how to operate computers intuitiviely, and have no trouble installing software (ask any grandparent whos kids stay with them). there are lots of people with kids on this forum (from infant to grown up)...ask them.

Quote:
. If for some reason the computer itself is free, it still requires additional income for maintenance and the monthly internet bill.

Why would any of this be a priority when so many people are struggling just to meet basic expenses for themselves and their family?


...more households have cable tv than telephones (and that was true before cell phones became ubiqutous).....when ramona was taking a first time homebuying class (by the city development corp, not a scam), they considered the cable bill and cigarettes as "necessities". helping the poor is a whole other issue, and i don't see how it's an aspect of why women aren't in electronic music.

Quote:
Again, a luxury for someone with no responsibility to children or family.

...yeah, so? with no childeren one has more free time....but also no childern. no one is "getting away" with anything, there are pros and cons to all lifestyles.

Quote:
Perhaps, but you have to know about them to use them. I've never heard about them until just now and I consider myself "computer literate".

...well, look around on this forum. people ask questions like:
http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=free+software+started&t=2067

...and they get answers. you can search without letting anyone know you are here, or you can ask expicit questions...and you will get answers. no one will care if you are a man or woman....rich or poor....post 5 times a day, or 3 times a year when you are at the library. simply doing a google search on 'free electronic music production software' would have gotten you there in 5 minutes. in addition, many (including myself) have recomended the nord moudular g2 demo, and rob's FREE tutorial that is more like a degree in modular synthesis.

Quote:
More luxuries for people with disposable income or people with good credit and selfish priorities.


well, if one wants to make electronic music, one needs electronics. if these are all frivolous toys of the uncaring rich in your mind, then i can't imagine that you enjoyed the electro-music event.

Quote:
Ever meet a member of "the working poor"?

Perhaps you aren't familiar with it because people who work minimum wage or less don't troll forums like this starting topics like "minimum wage sucks. should i pay for rent or food and a car? wish list: health insurance and childcare. thank god i never want to retire."


in fact i have. if you would like to meet some yourself, feel free to come visit....my neighborhood is full of working poor, many hispanic, and lots of kids who grow up in cities eating processed food. as i'm "trolling" this forum today, i've been building beehives for my beekeeping business (one of the only chemical free operations in the state)...we have a few hives in the back yard, and i spend a reasonable ammount of time every summer talking to the kids that cut through our yard...from young innocents to full fledged gang members. we also have an organic garden, and often give tomatoes to the "working poor" famillies around us, and many of the kids have never tasted a fresh tomato.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
i'm not sure what you are so angry about, "there have always been poor".


I'm annoyed with whoever says it's not an issue in people participating in electro.

Quote:
if you want all of the 7 billion people on the planet to have the ability to make electronic music, i think you have the wrong goals.


Obviously that's what I'm saying. I want theremins for every man, woman and child! No, I'm saying there should be more diversity and equal access to it. Perhaps, as discussed, there should be some outreach to groups that are underrepresented for one reason or another. Isn't that what this forum is about?


Quote:
If for some reason the computer itself is free, it still requires additional income for maintenance and the monthly internet bill.

Why would any of this be a priority when so many people are struggling just to meet basic expenses for themselves and their family?


Exactly my point...

Quote:

Again, a luxury for someone with no responsibility to children or family.

...yeah, so? with no childeren one has more free time....but also no childern. no one is "getting away" with anything,


Overlooking the spelling errors, is there something else missing from this? Please clarify.


Quote:
:
More luxuries for people with disposable income or people with good credit and selfish priorities.


well, if one wants to make electronic music, one needs electronics. if these are all frivolous toys of the uncaring rich in your mind, then i can't imagine that you enjoyed the electro-music event.


I'm saying it's selfish to spend money on music equipment when one has, say, neglected things like child support, health insurance, huge amounts of debt, retirement planning, etc.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bernat wrote:

I'm saying it's selfish to spend money on music equipment when one has, say, neglected other more basic needs like child support, health insurance, huge amounts of debt, retirement planning, etc.


And right you are. I'd like to add that if there is a fire in one's house it's generally advisable to first put this out and only then devote time to composing music.

I've never seen this pointed out in any textbook on composition or -for that matter- recording technique while it's quite important, at least as important as proper grounding or having fingers. Particularly when using tape, I might add, tape-machines will only work properly below certain temperatures.

I'd like to petition to make a FAQ that will cover such important topics as "not spending money on gear when there are other more basic needs to cover", "not composing while the house is on fire" and perhaps even then importance of making sure one has fingers before taking regular keyboard lessons.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I used to have a weekly radio program on Pacifica Radio in the 70s. From time to time people held meetings to get my show taken off the air because electronic music was elitist. Elitist was bad, like racist or capitalist pig. Electronic music was also criticized for being sexist.

I was not enthusiastic about going into a big political meeting and fighting for my program or for electronic music. Fortunately, Beth Anderson (she is a member here) heard about this and organized a group of women composers who went into a big KPFA pow wow and defended the show and electronic music.

In those days electronic music was certainly more exclusive than today and virtually all of the music was made in an academic or industrial studio - but that was starting to change even then.

This elitist thing is something we each have to come to grips with in their own way.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

some things:

1. bernat, this isn't the 'strife! i agree with your opinions (having just read "taking on the big boys" by ellen bravo, which says pretty much everything you just did, with about as much indignation) but (and this applies to everybody. yes, you too. yes, and you.) keep in mind this is a community and the point of this forum is to form connections and be welcoming.

2. the section in the first post about women being intimidated by going into a world dominated by (mostly nice, intelligent, interesting, and helpful) men and being in the position of knowing nothing and sticking out like a sore thumb because of the combination of gender and n00b status really resonated with me. everything i know about making electronic music i learned from smokris, and even though he's the sweetest guy on the planet it's still difficult to keep from getting defensive sometimes -- it's so easy for him and so confusing for me. of course, most men who are into electro were encouraged to get into computer stuff at an early age, since it's expected that boys "will be boys".

2-1/2. example: my brother got an erector set for hannukah one year. i got iridescent sweaters. i still haven't gotten over my jealousy, as i never got an erector set despite trying to steal his every day for about 5 years. the uncle who gave us these things might as well have handed us cards, one for my brother saying "we value your ingenuety" and one for me saying "we value your shiny-ness".

3. i'm a very independent person who doesn't like to be the one tagging along asking how everything works. i have posted in a few of the forums besides this one, but find it more productive to observe and experiment than to charge into a conversation and ask for a quick explanation of everything ever. the making of this forum (and i get to be mod! w00t!) has been really empowering for me personally (and for berae too apparently) to feel a part of this community and encourage further involvement and learning.

4. it's true that a lot of the threads have gotten really pedantic and convoluted and, at first glance, counterproductive, but people are contributing to those discussions too so clearly they have some value for those people. and while i never really wished for a thread about midi monitoring of female undergarments, i'm not going to say it's not constructive.

5. i will, however, heartily agree with those who find that midi underwear and pretty much everything in the "abstractions" thread falls outside the category of "things that directly address the role of women in electro". we should definitely talk about actual music/creativity issues as it applies to us, as in, all the people reading this. i really like the first post of this thread (don't agree with every single point, but overall like the thoughtful consideration given to it) and would be interested to read more people's perspectives on those issues.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bbinkovitz wrote:
my brother got an erector set


you mean something like this Question

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bbinkovitz wrote:
2-1/2. example: my brother got an erector set for hannukah one year. i got iridescent sweaters.


The Mrs had a similar experience. So we gave our niece an Erector Set for xmass one year. Every child should get one. It's an easy way to contribute to gender equality. A chemistry set at a little later age is a good idea too.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:

This elitist thing is something we each have to come to grips with in their own way.


Excelent. I completely missed that angle in my topic-starting post above but it's a very important issue and it definately relates to gender in EM in a very practical and imediate way. I don't think I'll have time today but I'd like to cover how I see that in relation to the things I already outlined.

Also, I'm sorry for that last post above but I was a bit frustrated.

B, "abstractions", for better ot worse, does cover some quite fundamental issues. maybe it wasn't the best as a first big topic but I maintain that you can't realy treat electronic music as entirely seperate from the rest of society. I'm not so sure a true "direct" aproach can be fielded at all without carefull thought about a whole lot of less direct angles.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
I'm sorry for that last post above but I was a bit frustrated.

no, you are not, if you were you would edit it Twisted Evil

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I'm annoyed with whoever says it's not an issue in people participating in electro.


financial situation is much less of an issue than it used to be as far as people having the ability to create electronic music. synthesizers used to be rare, expensive, big, etc. they are not any more. and i'll reiterate, for people that can't get to the library or can't afford to buy a computer at the thrift store, the "right" to make electronic music is down in the noise.


Quote:
No, I'm saying there should be more diversity and equal access to it. Perhaps, as discussed, there should be some outreach to groups that are underrepresented for one reason or another. Isn't that what this forum is about?

...sounds to me like you are volunteering for an outreach project. what groups would you like to target?


Quote:
Quote:
If for some reason the computer itself is free, it still requires additional income for maintenance and the monthly internet bill.

Why would any of this be a priority when so many people are struggling just to meet basic expenses for themselves and their family?


Exactly my point...


you might want to check yourself here....you just quoted and agreed with yourself.

Quote:
Quote:

Again, a luxury for someone with no responsibility to children or family.

...yeah, so? with no childeren one has more free time....but also no childern. no one is "getting away" with anything,


Overlooking the spelling errors, is there something else missing from this? Please clarify.

gee, i hope the teacher doesn't take points off for spelling...oh wait, i'm not in school, you had no trouble understanding what i was saying, and i'm writing this on my own time. my point (which kassen also made) is that not having children has some advantages (money, time, etc), and some disadvantages (kids are fun, kids can take care of you in your old age, etc). there are lots of choices when one gets pregnant...in fact, i was adopted. people may _feel_ trapped and like they have no choices, but there are always choices.



i'm not sure how you can say that "microphones, mixing boards, guitar pedals, outboard processing, digital recorders" are:

Quote:
More luxuries for people with disposable income or people with good credit and selfish priorities.

and claim to mean:
Quote:
I'm saying it's selfish to spend money on music equipment when one has, say, neglected things like child support, health insurance, huge amounts of debt, retirement planning, etc.

as they are two totally differant statements.

i bought my pa when i was putting on a benefit concert for the victims of the bombing in bali. i borrowed money from a fellow musician, and paid him back out of my pocket over the following year (certainly not from the benefit procedes). i actually make a lot of sacrifices to live my lifestyle and have the equipment i have...i drive a 93 honda when i really need a truck, ramona and i brought and cooked our food at electromusic to save money, we don't go out much, and grow much of our own food.

certainly, one could argue that all the participants of electro-music could be volunteering at a soup kitchen instead of being at an electronic music conferance, or that the registration fees could "go to a good cause". howard could give all his money away to charity and not have the resources to put on such an event. ....but i think it's futile to tell other people how they should spend their money. do you want me to tell you how to spend your money?

i'll say it again, if you want to be involved, get involved. this subforum, although enlightend in concept, is silly if women come here to talk about how they are excluded from a community that already includes them. the forums are open, use them. if you merely want the right to be included, but don't want to include yourself, then i think this is all silly.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i suggest we change the name of this forum from "women in electro-music" to "race/class/gender in electro-music".
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