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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
Schulte Compact A Phasing
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:02 pm    Post subject: Schulte Compact A Phasing Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, ok. Smile

I just opened the "Compact Clone" I've built many years ago.

Biggest challenge will be to find LDRs from current production which show the same behaviour as the unmarked (!) LDRs I have used back then.

I dismantled the Lamp / LDR / black adhesive tape blocj and made some measurements which will most probably allow me to find an equivalent.

You're really interested in this?!
I know: the sound, the sound!

But we're talking of high wattage resistors, transistors with heat sinks here Smile

And probably 741 opamps Smile

We'll see.

It would certainly be an interesting DIY project.

JH.

Now playing: Vangelis, Beaubourg (Vinyl from ebay just came in today.)

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b-funk



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

the frequency of cool announcements you make is really amazing... Shocked

do you ever sleep or just chill?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Jurgen!

My MAIN MAN!!!

The building of the LDR's will be cool. We will conquer this together. I think many people will love to have a go building these Very Happy

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Schulte Compact A Phasing Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:

And probably 741 opamps Smile


Don't knock that 741 noise! It is part of the sound Cool

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Schulte Compact A Phasing Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:


Now playing: Vangelis, Beaubourg (Vinyl from ebay just came in today.)


"Apocalypse Des Animaux" is a BIG hit in this house. Apparently there is not one synthesizer on it! Shocked

Beaubourg is considered by many as his finest- and his most unlistenable!! Shocked Laughing

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I would build two, without question.

And Juergen has been working away for months on these, don't be fooled. Wink

I'm happy to see so many of my favorite things becoming even more popular. It makes the world just that much more acceptable to me. When will all of the Roland filter modules start appearing???
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Peake wrote:
don't be fooled. Wink


Oh- but I am not fooled. JH is The Clone Master. salut salut salut

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Schulte Compact A Phasing Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
Don't knock that 741 noise! It is part of the sound Cool


A decade ago, I would never have thought that I'd ever defend the lowly 741...but truly, all of that low slew rate mangling and other atrocities are part of the sound.

Ever look at the EMS video synthesizer? Its visuals are utter child's play these days, but what's interesting about it is that as it turns a pattern on and off, it never seems to settle in exactly the same way. And there is a large amount of settling, where a perfect version would simply toggle on and off.

Sort of like the Buchla 200 filter/gates.

I'll wager that discrete vintage analog circuits exhibit more of this sort of thing than their speedier modern counterparts, even if it is technically insignificant in measurement. How much does the Moog 961 clock swing around as it and the module strain the power supply? Etc.

Don't some vintage EQs tend to have more of a filter resonance, and suggest a physical resonant space, better than any digital EQ? There is something going on there...ringing or something...that makes vintage analog more acoustic-sounding than the digital equivs.

The problem is, my shoes -are- soapboxes. I'd never get anywhere if I took them off. Clunk-klonk. Clunk-klonk.

Thank you Juergen for paying attention to the audibly desirable yet simultaneously technically undesirable aspects of vintage gear.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
Peake wrote:
don't be fooled. Wink


Oh- but I am not fooled. JH is The Clone Master. salut salut salut


The winky I posted means humor, not disrespect, in case any take me the wrong way.

Edit: Sorry, I'm hijacking again. I'm just really passionate about finding out the reasons for what I'm hearing.

Definitely, back to "more A Phasers for everybody."

Last edited by Peake on Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Don't worry- I didn't Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

b-funk wrote:
the frequency of cool announcements you make is really amazing... Shocked

do you ever sleep or just chill?


Well, it's easy to announce things - doing them will take a lot more time. Smile

But seriously: I have built a lot of stuff on veroboard over the years, and turning this into a pcb will be a lot easier than starting from scratch.

But my "Compact Clone" has an interesting story behind it.
Apart from being a fun project for me, a local music store wanted me to turn it into a commercial project - me providing the re-engineering, and them taking care of production. They even showed my prototype on NAMM some years ago. It didn't come to that, for several reasons that were out of my influence. It did turn out in a positive way for me, nevertheless: I received some money to build the prototype, and the prototype was agrred to stay in my possession.

That's why I have hesitated offering this particular project - not before I've spoken to the other party who was involved back then.

We had a very pleasant talk recently, and we agreed that there is room enough for both, a diy project, and for building complete phasers. Personally I'm intrigued by the second option as well, but who knows what will come out of it. But whether this will happen or not, option 1 looks good in any case. The electronics will easily fit on a 160mm x 100mm euroboard, which means the PCBs will be affordable, like the Tau phaser boards.

JH.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Schulte Compact A Phasing Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:

Don't knock that 741 noise! It is part of the sound Cool


I think I should say a few words about the 741.

I don't think it contributes much noise to the Compact A. The Compact A is very quiet, compared to OTA-based or FET-based - or thansistor-ladder based, for that matter! - phasers. At least when you use it with high signal levels.

The reason why it's hard to replace the 741 in that circuit is because it's so "well-natured", and the phaser partly relies on it to be so.

A little history: The 741 has become what it is because of the tight safety requirements for nuclear power plants. At least that's what one of my now retired colleagues has told me; he was involved in the specification personally. Not from the the semiconductor manufacturer side, but from the side of the a big industrial customer who wanted to have a chip certified for applications as mentioned above.
This meant, among other things: strictliy no latch up or phase inversal when used outside of its commeon mode input range. And stable.

How does this relate to a phaser? Well, in the compact A, it's easy to exceed the common mode range of the opamps when it's overdriven.
And when the LDRs see a lot of light, the opamps see quite some capacitive load.

I'm pretty sure that there are moden opamps which can replace the 741 here. But I also know the usual suspects like TL071 and similar opamps will not be able to do so.

Anyway: it's a diy project, and everyone can use whatever opamps he likes to use. And share his findings.
And I'm not singing praises to the 741 for audio in general - there are ways to avoid exceeding common mode range, or to compensate for capacitive load, by circuit design, so you can use an unexpensive amp that is intended for audio. Just when you have set your mind on cloning a historical circuit, your degrees of freedom are somewhat limited to what will work in this circuit design.

Funny enough, I found that in my clone I have used RC4558's, but I needed a lot of tiny extra capacitors to get it stable. Smile

JH.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That's a very interesting piece on the 741 Smile

I think I mentioned noise because of the outtakes from Kraftwerk's official bootleg CD from the 90's taken from a North American Autobahn tour from 1975, where you can clearly hear the phaser working- with that typical quadratic oscillator sweep sound going on. It would make more sense that the phaser's 741 are so quiet as on other recordings there is little or no noise at all. Most of the noise was probably coming from the dodgy mixing desk that the sound engineer had poured beer over the night before Shocked Laughing

The 741 is still available isn't it? It would be nice if the clone was as near to the original as possible. Did the RC4558 change the sound of the phaser at all?

Also can you shed some more light on the assembly of the LDR units? I'm presuming that they are individually sealed? Could the bulb be replaced? I'm also guessing that using vactrols (which they are- sort of) wouldn't work as well because of the decreased slew time- or am I talking a lot of rubbish (again)?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
It would be nice if the clone was as near to the original as possible.


But you wouldn't want DIN jacks. Smile

And probably not a "period" potentiometer for the LFO Rate, with maximum speed on ccw end position?

Quote:
where you can clearly hear the phaser working- with that typical quadratic oscillator sweep sound going on.


With resonance tuned up, the phaser will emphasize noise from the input, even when not contributing any noise to speak of, of its own.

Quote:
Did the RC4558 change the sound of the phaser at all?


I had provided sockets for dual opamps, and ended up with the 4558 because it worked, at least after adding caps. It's been a long time since I tried it side by side with the original - I sold it as soon as I got my Compact Clone working.

Quote:
Also can you shed some more light on the assembly of the LDR units? I'm presuming that they are individually sealed? Could the bulb be replaced?


In my memory pictures of the original and of my clone's interior are so mixed up that I cannot say for sure how Gert Schulte has done it, what lamp sockets he used, etc. But I know what worked for me (and I even think it's the same way he did it, but I may be wrong), and this will be a good concept for diy builders, too.

Quote:
I'm also guessing that using vactrols (which they are- sort of) wouldn't work as well because of the decreased slew time- or am I talking a lot of rubbish (again)?


I've used the exact same topology for one of the modes in my Matrix FX phaser module (see
http://jhaible.heim.at/matrix_fx/jh_matrix_fx.html; scroll down to the phaser description and schematics), and while this sounds nice, it does not have the certain something of the Compact A, or of my Compact Clone. This is clearly due to the incandescent lamps, and their operation way below their nominal operating temperature. (which, btw, will ensure almost "infinite" life for the bulbs.)

JH.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
Quote:
It would be nice if the clone was as near to the original as possible.


But you wouldn't want DIN jacks. Smile

And probably not a "period" potentiometer for the LFO Rate, with maximum speed on ccw end position?



Laughing

Oh DIN. DIN jacks aren't bad- until you come to either soldering their pins or trying to retrieve a pin stuck in the female socket Shocked Laughing

Yes DIN a no-go!

But a "period" potentiometer? That sounds interesting. Is this a delay into the effect or something? Unfortunately I've never actually owned one. I had several chances but they were never for sale in the UK- always Germany or Belgium (why Belgium?! Laughing ), but anyways, this was before PayPal and I'd had two people from Germany run off with my money so I wasn't going to chance it again. Then I saw your clone- and there was hope once more Cool

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:


I've used the exact same topology for one of the modes in my Matrix FX phaser module


Wow Jurgen! That's a beautiful thing!

Would you really sell you Synthi clone? Shocked It's unique!

I once made the mistake (well it wasn't a mistake in the mistake-sense of the word!) to phone up Graham Hinton, and must have spent 4 good hours chatting to him on the phone (I hated to think how much the phone bill would have been!!), but he said the reason that Peter Zinovieff was so keen on patch pins was because he disliked patch cables. I do really love the tidyness of EMS's front panels too.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
jhaible wrote:
Quote:
It would be nice if the clone was as near to the original as possible.


But you wouldn't want DIN jacks. Smile

And probably not a "period" potentiometer for the LFO Rate, with maximum speed on ccw end position?



Laughing

Oh DIN. DIN jacks aren't bad- until you come to either soldering their pins or trying to retrieve a pin stuck in the female socket Shocked Laughing

Yes DIN a no-go!

But a "period" potentiometer? That sounds interesting. Is this a delay into the effect or something? Unfortunately I've never actually owned one. I had several chances but they were never for sale in the UK- always Germany or Belgium (why Belgium?! Laughing ), but anyways, this was before PayPal and I'd had two people from Germany run off with my money so I wasn't going to chance it again. Then I saw your clone- and there was hope once more Cool


For a reasonable feel of a LFO rate potentiometer, you either need a reverse audio taper potentiometer in rheostat configuration, or an ordinary log potentiometer in voltage divider configuration. The latter requires low offset opamps, which the 741s are not. So Schulte used an ordinary log pot as rheostat, but hooked up backwards, and called the function "period" (as in " 1 / frequency").
Even though it's a nice touch of uniqueness, I always find myself working it the wrong way.

JH.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I still don't quite understand what this 'rheostat pot' was supposed to so with the lfo?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
I still don't quite understand what this 'rheostat pot' was supposed to so with the lfo?


Variable Resistor for changing LFO frequency

JH.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ah okay! Laughing Idea
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Schulte Compact A Phasing Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:

"Apocalypse Des Animaux" is a BIG hit in this house. Apparently there is not one synthesizer on it! Shocked


It's a true highlight in Vangelis's career.
I discovered his early works rather late in life: Apocalypse, Earth, 666.

Quote:
Beaubourg is considered by many as his finest- and his most unlistenable!! Shocked Laughing


I think it's ok. Quite listenable, but not outstanding. Daring, yes.
My all time favorite is China. I never tire of playing this, and have aquired two mint vinyl copies of it because I fear I'll wear one down soon. Followed by Earth and See You Later, which both are terribly underrated IMO.

JH.

Now playing: Tori Amos, American Doll Posse

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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v-un-v
Janitor
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Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8932
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

"See you later" is a very strange LP. Quite 'progressive' if I remember? I've also got "Spiral"- but only for the track 3+3. I'm not too keen on Vangelis' later stuff- and that I'm afraid includes China. 'Heaven and Earth' was quite beautiful too- and was recorded around the Apocalypse period. It was the music that accompanied Carl Sagan's space documentaries- which I used to love as a child.

Have you heard any Harmonia? They are fellow countrymen of yours. the track 'Notre Dame' off Deluxe has some very Vangelis-esq moments

You can hear Notre Dame here

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ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
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IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

PS- I tend to listen to classical music mostly these days. I still love gadgets such as drum machines and my Nord Modular, and the music I make is very 'electronic', but as I said, most of the music I listen too made by others, tends to be over 100 years old! Embarassed Not the kind of thing you are supposed to say on an electronic music forum!! Rolling Eyes Wink

But I do still listen to Cluster and Harmonia on a regular basis also. Also quite a fair bit of Aphex Twin- so I guess that says a lot about Richard D James? Oh and I forgot, I've just really been getting back into Brian Eno's first couple of LP's as well. ("Here come the Warm Jets" and "Taking Tiger Mountain").

Listening to BBC Radio 3's "Late Junction" right now.
edit; "words and music", not late junction.

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IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What's your favorite shop in the USA to buy LDRs and incandescent lamps?

Looking for 7V / 0.1A lamps and a socket (E10 preferred). Easy to get in Germany. But in the US and elsewhere?

Also looking for all kinds of LDRs that are available globally and not overly expensive, to choose one that will fit for th eCompact Clone.

Any pointers welcome; preferably with links.

JH.

Now playing: Leonard Cohen, Various Positions.
Popol Vuh, Seligpreisung

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ahh! Popul Vuh!

In Den Garten Pharaos

and

Brueder des Schattens- Soehne des Lichts

Both Classic LP's! Very Happy

Erm- I don't order (or live in) from the States. What voltage are the lamps? What is their wattage too? I and many other Englishmen go for Rapid, Farnell or RS Electronics.

edit; Doh! 7v etc

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ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
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IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
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