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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
Famous Fixed Filters - FFF PCB ?
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:42 am    Post subject: Famous Fixed Filters - FFF PCB ? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've been thinking about PCB projects for 2008.

What dou you think about a collection of "Famous Fixed Filters"?

I think fixed filters are much underrated. Sure, the first thing you need in a synthesizer, is a variable filter - a VCF. Several VCFs, actually. The next step are fixed filters like filter banks, graphic and parametric equalizers, for formant shaping.
But then there are the "preset filters" that have been optimized in ensemble keyboards, electronic organs, the Polymoog, the Vocoder Plus, you name it. These filters can be emulated with parametric EQs to a certain degree, but it would still be nice to have the original filter, in dedicated hardware, with all their complexity, all their special overload behaviour, all their character.

But there's a problem:
A few years a go I built a rackmount FX to emulate the Human Voice filters of the Roland Vocoder Plus VP330.
This is an example for such a filter - but IMO it's not worth to make a dedicated module for this. It's a waste of front panel space to make a dedicated module for such a small filter circuit.

So I had the idea to combine many such fixed filters in one module.

Right now I try to find out how many "famous" fixed filters I can put on a single 160mm x 100mm PCB - and which filters are your favorites.

The Polymoog comes to mind.
All kinds of Formant filters in electronic organs.
A "manual" filter like the SH-5 BPF.
...
Anything that needs a minimum of front panel controls and has a lot of
character.

Let me know what filter you would like to see included.
And if you're interested in such a PCB at all.

The idea is to offer a board for 27.00 Euro with all the filters on it, and then allow various configurations:

(1) Each filter may have its dedicated input and output jack.

(2) You have one general input and output, and a set of switches, or a rotary switch, to choose your favorite fixed filter.

(3) You could also connect potentiometers to each filter output and mix them all together.

(4) You could have normalized input and output jacks, to use certain filters separately, and still mix some of the others together.

(5) You could feed different waveforms into dedicated filter inputs, and then mix the outputs.

(6) or any other combination that comes to mind.

Let me know what you think about this idea.

Would you buy such a board?
What classic filters would you consider mandatory in such a collection?

Looking forward to hear from you!

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Very Happy

Oh yeah! Bring it on!

Uh.. I almost forgot the shades... there: Cool

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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Very Happy

Oh yeah! Bring it on!

Uh.. I almost forgot the shades... there: Cool


Yeah, but what filters would you like to see included?

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Going on your reputation ALONE - I'm IN for at LEAST 1 of the PCBs. Very Happy

Filter's preferences though - my knowledge is sparse. My STRONGEST desire definately, is for a 'vocal' filter. (In the mid 90's I started on my own Vowel_S_, filter. Never completed it, though I still have it's start. Trimmer MADNESS on it. Shocked )

Outside of that, my only requests are modulation possibilities for Fc and/or Resonance in at least 1.

Vocal though - is by far, my HUGEST desire. Outside of that - I'd rely on your knowledge / experience as well as other's inputs. Smile

1 PCB for SURE - I'm already interested in. Could quite easily move up to 2 depending on what all else gets added to it. Smile

(And typical for me - I'll have attenuated Ins/Outs for everything as well - as I have no shortage of panel space. Wink lol )
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice idea.

"vox humana" from polymoog keyboard. Maybe the "chorus" from the korg lambda.
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bugbrand



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Ryk,

I don't want to sidetrack Jurgen's post (which is interesting!)
- but for vocal filter ideas you could have a look at the (quite) recent Chatterbox post - there's a big document with details about what responses you're looking for. The project has voices too (throat and noise), but you could easily just make use of the filtering section with a little work.

--> http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-21642.html

I think this implementation is very different from what Jurgen is proposing!

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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bugbrand wrote:
Hey Ryk,

I don't want to sidetrack Jurgen's post (which is interesting!)
- but for vocal filter ideas you could have a look at the (quite) recent Chatterbox post - there's a big document with details about what responses you're looking for. The project has voices too (throat and noise), but you could easily just make use of the filtering section with a little work.

--> http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-21642.html

I think this implementation is very different from what Jurgen is proposing!


Thanks for mentioning that one Tom! Smile I'd saved the PDF before, but I never even THOT of just pulling the filter from it! Cool. Smile Shall have to gander at it again. Very Happy
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah i'd love to see a vocal formant vcf pcb.
With a preset switch to configure the filters for the kind of sound you want.

This is a good example

http://www.marksmart.net/sounddesign/choirsounds/choirsounds.html

Coolest would be if the presets could be selected by CV or perhaps gate/triggers.

Very Happy
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Peake



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The PolyMoog, the "vocal" formant filter you put on your Solina clone, etc.

Like the Buchla 296, you may wish to add a VC BPF which would allow the different bands to become "illuminated" as you sweep across them. I've not yet checked to see if that is just after the inputs or if it filters across the FFB outputs.

I think that the Moog FFB has the most character due to the technology that is utilized, but Modusonics still make those for a living.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bugbrand wrote:
Hey Ryk,

I don't want to sidetrack Jurgen's post (which is interesting!)
- but for vocal filter ideas you could have a look at the (quite) recent Chatterbox post - there's a big document with details about what responses you're looking for. The project has voices too (throat and noise), but you could easily just make use of the filtering section with a little work.

--> http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-21642.html

I think this implementation is very different from what Jurgen is proposing!


Yes, I guess I have to clarify this: Despite the fact that I've chosen some "vocal" preset as an example, I have no intention to make any vocal/speech animator.

So VP330 Human voice, Polymoog Keyboard Vox Humana, or Lambda Chorus are candidates for my board - but I don't want to make it a competition for a Delay Lama - or a vocoder, for that matter.
I'd say 2 or 3 vocal presets, plus a bunch of other presets.
The aim here is clearly not to make a perfect emulaton of the human voice - but a perfect emulation of classic synth instrument's preset filters!

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Peake wrote:
The PolyMoog,


Just the Vox Humana, or other filters from the Poly Moog as well?

ETA: Thinking of it, maybe the *complete* set of the PolyMoog's fixed filters would be worth having in a standalone box. Is that waht you meant?

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:

So VP330 Human voice, Polymoog Keyboard Vox Humana, or Lambda Chorus are candidates for my board - but I don't want to make it a competition for a Delay Lama - or a vocoder, for that matter.
I'd say 2 or 3 vocal presets, plus a bunch of other presets.
The aim here is clearly not to make a perfect emulaton of the human voice - but a perfect emulation of classic synth instrument's preset filters!

JH.


For vocal filters i'd love to see the these two Jurgen

- Farfisa Polychrome
- VP-330

These are really the ones i'd love the best.
I think i got acces to schematics of the Polychrome.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mono-poly wrote:
Yeah i'd love to see a vocal formant vcf pcb.
With a preset switch to configure the filters for the kind of sound you want.

This is a good example

http://www.marksmart.net/sounddesign/choirsounds/choirsounds.html

Coolest would be if the presets could be selected by CV or perhaps gate/triggers.

Very Happy


Love that Ligeti-esque mp3: http://www.marksmart.net/sounddesign/choirsounds/JDLigeti.mp3

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mono-poly wrote:
jhaible wrote:

So VP330 Human voice, Polymoog Keyboard Vox Humana, or Lambda Chorus are candidates for my board - but I don't want to make it a competition for a Delay Lama - or a vocoder, for that matter.
I'd say 2 or 3 vocal presets, plus a bunch of other presets.
The aim here is clearly not to make a perfect emulaton of the human voice - but a perfect emulation of classic synth instrument's preset filters!

JH.


For vocal filters i'd love to see the these two Jurgen

- Farfisa Polychrome
- VP-330

These are really the ones i'd love the best.
I think i got acces to schematics of the Polychrome.


Do you, ore does anybody, have the Polychrome schematics?

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I used to have a broken polychrome.
At that time i bought a copy of the service manual for about 40 euro.
I did send an email to that friend if he could get me a copy of the formant vcf section jurgen.
I'll let you know when i got it.
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Peake



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
Peake wrote:
The PolyMoog,


Just the Vox Humana, or other filters from the Poly Moog as well?

ETA: Thinking of it, maybe the *complete* set of the PolyMoog's fixed filters would be worth having in a standalone box. Is that waht you meant?

JH.


Hi, I've never owned one or spent quality time with one, so I say, use whatever is there, that is good.

I only remember having an interest in the resonantors at one point, and took it that this was the "Vox Humana" that others are mentioning. Idea
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
Just the Vox Humana, or other filters from the Poly Moog as well?


From memory, the other preset filters are probably not worth the trouble.

I think the polymoog preset filters used inductors like the moog Fixed filter bank.

I wonder if adding a bbd chorus to the project would be worth while, switchable from pre to post filter?
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
mono-poly wrote:
jhaible wrote:

So VP330 Human voice, Polymoog Keyboard Vox Humana, or Lambda Chorus are candidates for my board - but I don't want to make it a competition for a Delay Lama - or a vocoder, for that matter.
I'd say 2 or 3 vocal presets, plus a bunch of other presets.
The aim here is clearly not to make a perfect emulaton of the human voice - but a perfect emulation of classic synth instrument's preset filters!

JH.


For vocal filters i'd love to see the these two Jurgen

- Farfisa Polychrome
- VP-330

These are really the ones i'd love the best.
I think i got acces to schematics of the Polychrome.


Do you, ore does anybody, have the Polychrome schematics?

JH.


Jurgen i am gonna pick up the service manual this weekend.
If everything goes fine i will have a pdf made it of the upcoming days at work.
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Norman Phay



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This sounds like a great idea, Jurgen. As long as it does the VP330 effect, I'll be happy, TBH. Everything else is a bonus for me.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mono-poly wrote:
jhaible wrote:
mono-poly wrote:
jhaible wrote:

So VP330 Human voice, Polymoog Keyboard Vox Humana, or Lambda Chorus are candidates for my board - but I don't want to make it a competition for a Delay Lama - or a vocoder, for that matter.
I'd say 2 or 3 vocal presets, plus a bunch of other presets.
The aim here is clearly not to make a perfect emulaton of the human voice - but a perfect emulation of classic synth instrument's preset filters!

JH.


For vocal filters i'd love to see the these two Jurgen

- Farfisa Polychrome
- VP-330

These are really the ones i'd love the best.
I think i got acces to schematics of the Polychrome.


Do you, ore does anybody, have the Polychrome schematics?

JH.


Jurgen i am gonna pick up the service manual this weekend.
If everything goes fine i will have a pdf made it of the upcoming days at work.


That's great. Take your time with this - the mail today delivered a huge package, and the most urgent thing for me to do is to build a second prototype of ... but that belongs to another thread. Smile

JH.

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ENDIF



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I know I sent an email direct, but one can't be too careful;
down for at least one, please! =D

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austrohungaro



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Please!

Greatest idea!

Your PCB projects are just what I want: Phaser, Solina Chorus, Tau, Frequency Shifter, String Filter... and now that 'greatest hits' FFF!!
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gavgomad



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just to keep some discussion going on this possible project.... Wink

I love this idea! I've been following discussion of a 15x15 MIDI controlled audio router in another forum, and it would seem ideal with this kind of project.... Send a program change, and so long as you have a decent "source" synth, you can capture that eerie magic of a VP-330 or Polymoog, send it to your Triple Chorus / Schulte, and voila!

In terms of the filters I'd love to see, I think the starting point JH has mentioned would be perfect - Vox Humana (Polymoog), VP-330 vocal filter....

I don't have the experience with the Lambda personally to know it's sound, but I trust JHs ears.... ;-P

I think maybe one more "choir"-type filter, and perhaps some "stringer filters".... The Polymoog strings are quite nice, and Vangelis swore by the strings from his VP-330.... Not a replacement for the big string filter planned already, but a more "electronic" variation on the theme.... Wink

Gav
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

gavgomad wrote:
I've been following discussion of a 15x15 MIDI controlled audio router in another forum,


Do you have a link?

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Dave Kendall



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Maybe this one?

http://www.midibox.org/forum/forums.html?topic=10247.0

Smile
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