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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
Voltage controlled version of Moog Parametric Equalizer?
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:08 am    Post subject: Voltage controlled version of Moog Parametric Equalizer? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

While asking around about filters to be included into my proposed "famous fixed filters" PCB,
another idea came up, which has caused a lot of resonance so far:
People want a Moog(TM) parametric EQ.
(Moog is the registered trademark of Moog Music. The Moog Parametric EQ was based on a - now expired - patent of Dr. Moog and Norlin. AFAIK)

But just cloning that circuit woud be boring, and would require very special potentiometers.

So why not design something that is even better than the original, while still preserving the original's behaviour?
This leads to the voltage controlled M-Para-EQ.

The PCB would contain the electronics for the EQ, including the voltage controlled frequency sweep.
Everybody has the choice to build it as a voltage controlled device, or just like a "simple" Moog-style parametric EQ.

Options for Frequency control:

(F1) Voltage controlled sweep, either of individual bands, and/or of all bands with one CV. Manaul control of frequencies with ordinary linear potentiometer.
(F2) Manual frequency setting with dual 100k reverse audio taper (-log) potentiometers
(F3) Manual frequency setting with dual 100k audio taper (log) potentiometers.EMS-HiFli style front panel labeling that allows for high frequencies to be on the ccw end of pot.
(F4) 23-position rotary switch (as used in High End Audio Amps) for precise setting and recall of frequency, but without continuous sweep.
(F5) 23-position rotary switch for precice manual frequency setting, plus voltage control for continuous sweep.

Options for Bandwidth control:

(B1) 6-position rotary switch. (You can use a 23-position as well, but that would be overkill, IMO.)
(B2) Build your own special pot from a dual 50k log and a single 500R lin pot, and some adventurous transplantation.

Options for Cut/Boost control:

(G1) Potentiometer (no special type required)
(G2) Rotary switch (11-position or 23-position)

Any combinations of F, B and G options are possible, by just connecting different front panel parts to the same PCB.

Interested?

JH.

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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

SOLD! Within reason, I don't CARE about the $$$ Shocked Shocked Shocked
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Rykhaard wrote:
SOLD! Within reason, I don't CARE about the $$$ Shocked Shocked Shocked


Well, you decide how expensive it will be.

You know the price tag of my PCBs.
The electronic components are rather cheap.
The Voltage control part won't be overly expensive, either.

So it's more or less the front panel contros that set the price - and you can choose them. 23-position switches are insanely expensive, but very very nice when you want to recall a specific setting. But most options don't need them, voltage control included.
6-position switches, as recommended for Bandwidth, are cheap.
You can upgrade opamps, of course. (Original has TI RC4558s.)
But you don't have to - that's the benefit of just buying a PCB, and deciding on the components yourself. Smile

JH.

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EdisonRex
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmm. That's an interesting project. This was essentially why I bought an extra 6 of Fonik's 2044 boards; I had the idea of building them into a "6 band" lowpass with Fc tracking and offset, and use his VC Q to get bandpass effects. Of course, the 2044 sounds nothing like the Moog Parametric, and having everything on one board would be easier to manage.

One can never have enough kinds of filters. I'd be interested in one board, should it become available.

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

And one for me too!
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meir



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i'm in for 5 Very Happy
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dar303



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm in for two!
Will the components fit on a standard eurocard?
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Clack



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

is there any examples what it sounds like around on the internet at the moment?
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toppobrillo



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sounds good...
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Luka



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yup, eq is one thing missing in my system
lock me in for 1

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loss1234



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i will want one for sure. are there any rare parts involved?

thanks

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Coriolis



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'll take 1!

C
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:39 am    Post subject: Re: Voltage controlled version of Moog Parametric Equalizer? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:


Interested?


Are you serious?? Shocked Shocked Shocked


Parametric EQ + Tape Delay + LOTS OF distortion and Feedback = Instant HAWKWIND!!! (Think 'Silver Machine' etc Laughing )


Vanilla VCF's are sooooooo boring!!!

Bring it on JH!! Very Happy

......OMG what have I just said?? I still haven't built anything else yet* Shocked Shocked Shocked

edit; * That should be all those boards I've bought since Ray's Soundlab Shocked Wink

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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

FYI, Andi Toma from 'Mouse on Mars' used the Moog parametric eq to get the MOM bass sound Cool
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Serenadi



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:51 am    Post subject: Re: Voltage controlled version of Moog Parametric Equalizer? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes. Sounds like another great project.
I guess, I'm in too. Rolling Eyes

jhaible wrote:
(F1) Voltage controlled sweep,... Manaul control of frequencies with ordinary linear potentiometer.
(F2) Manual frequency setting with dual 100k reverse audio taper (-log) potentiometers
...

(B1) 6-position rotary switch. (You can use a 23-position as well, but that would be overkill, IMO.)


Just 2 questions.

Are there significantly differences in manual control between the F1 and the F2 option concerning a comfortable handling?

As you mention a 6-position switch, I think of the inexpensive DP6T switches from Lorlin or C&K.
So I assume a SP12T switch isn't possible, because you have to replace the two pots, right?


What I'd like to see is an insert point on the pcb where one can patch a vca to replace the cut/boost.
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Peake



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'd have to disagree on this choice, with limitations on my disagreement.

I've had a couple of those over the years, and it's a love/hate thing. You'd have to address many issues, and if you did, it wouldn't end up sounding like the original.

The special character of the unit lies in the bass region. The pre-emph/de-emph circuit causes the treble to be caustic. I know that I've mentioned this in other forums, and expect that you have considered it already.

I am open to hearing what you can come up with, but I don't care for the sound of most modern EQ one whit. I don't like that highly stable resonant character, where increasing resonance has a sine-wave character prior to reaching the actual state of a sine wave. EQ mimics acoustic space. Some modern EQ doesn't sound acoustic. Most modern filters don't sound acoustic.

You can like it or you cannot like it. Shrug. I look forward to hearing what you come up with...
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Peake



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mmmm, thinking back reminds me that the Moog has a fairly wide bandwidth to play with, which is wider than most, several octaves IIRC.

If you can clean it up but not too far, I'd be interested in one, and I don't care about VC. That's just me and I'm only one vote.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Peake wrote:


The special character of the unit lies in the bass region. The pre-emph/de-emph circuit causes the treble to be caustic.


Personally I myself quite like a harsh/ caustic treble, but you're right, it's the bass end that this unit excels in. To be honest a vc-para eq of any kind or sort is a good thing, as there are very few of them about.

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jhaible



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Voltage controlled version of Moog Parametric Equalizer? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Serenadi wrote:
Yes. Sounds like another great project.
I guess, I'm in too. Rolling Eyes

jhaible wrote:
(F1) Voltage controlled sweep,... Manaul control of frequencies with ordinary linear potentiometer.
(F2) Manual frequency setting with dual 100k reverse audio taper (-log) potentiometers
...

(B1) 6-position rotary switch. (You can use a 23-position as well, but that would be overkill, IMO.)


Just 2 questions.

Are there significantly differences in manual control between the F1 and the F2 option concerning a comfortable handling?


A directly connected pot will either be more precise than voltage control, or you need a considerable amount of trimming.

Quote:
As you mention a 6-position switch, I think of the inexpensive DP6T switches from Lorlin or C&K.
So I assume a SP12T switch isn't possible, because you have to replace the two pots, right?


There are inexpensive 2P12T switches, that could be used.
But I don't like full 360deg operation for these functions, with the highest value jumping to the lowest. So if you have a 12-position (2pole) switch that you can turn into a 11-position switch, that would be great.
The 23-position rotary switches have 24 positions (15 degree from step to step), with one position disabled mechanically.
For bandwidth, I'd rather have 6 positions on 150 degrees than 12 positions on 360 degrees with "foldback".

But again, this would all be up to you. All these options would be *provided* on one and the same PCB, and *you* decide what you'll connect.


Quote:
What I'd like to see is an insert point on the pcb where one can patch a vca to replace the cut/boost.


It wouldn't be hard to design such a thing, but IMO it would be too far from the original Moog(TM) topology. I want the signal path to behave exactly as it does in the original, overload behaviour and all included.

JH.

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jhaible



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Peake wrote:

I am open to hearing what you can come up with, but I don't care for the sound of most modern EQ one whit. I don't like that highly stable resonant character, where increasing resonance has a sine-wave character prior to reaching the actual state of a sine wave. EQ mimics acoustic space. Some modern EQ doesn't sound acoustic. Most modern filters don't sound acoustic.


I don't know if that Moog(TM) EQ is better than modern EQs or not, but I'm sure that if you and anyone else is buying a PCB for a Moog inpired EQ, you want it to sound like the original. Everyone who wants an "ideal" EQ without side effects, will probably use a plug-in anyway, nowadays.
No, if I'm going for the behaviour of a Moog, i will take care that it will actually behave like a Moog. Everything else will just be _added_.

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss1234 wrote:
i will want one for sure. are there any rare parts involved?

thanks


Only the potentiometers.
Thus the options as described.
If you wanted to clone the original, you'd need dual potentiometers with two completely different carbon tracks in it's two compartments.
You *can* diy such a thing, but you also have other options.

The electronics are just cheap standard components, from what I can see so far.

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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austrohungaro



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Me too!

I will order one.

But, jürgen... how many different PCB projects are you on ??

I WANT THEM ALL

...and I want them soon...
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Peake



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
The electronics are just cheap standard components, from what I can see so far.

JH.


For the price of a few bands of this knowing that the parts aren't rare, I'd be in for one (and likely change the treble band to do something between the bass and mid). Huzzah!
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

austrohungaro wrote:
Me too!
But, jürgen... how many different PCB projects are you on ??


Well.
Don't expect them to come in rapid succession. But I have to find out now what I'll offer next year.
I plan to continue rolling out pcbs until you all get tired of it. Laughing

JH.

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Sebo



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi:
I would like one, may be more, depends on what going to cost.
I want to have some nice parametric EQ's, non really interested in
VC, if someone knows of other good DIY parametric EQ, please
tell me.
Thank you.

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