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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
Dim D
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What "chipset" would you like to see in a Dim D PCB
Original chips. They are still out there.
76%
 76%  [ 38 ]
Low voltage BBDs - easier to get, probably more noisy. Takes longer to design.
6%
 6%  [ 3 ]
Make a PCB that allows both options. Will be more expensive (more PCB area required!), and will take the longest to design.
14%
 14%  [ 7 ]
Not interested. (Who needs a Dim D? And isn't there another Dim D project on the way?!)
4%
 4%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 50

Author Message
jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think I'm going to take orders earlier than usual this time.
I'll probably post an order form soon. This won't guarantee that you'll get PCBs at a certain time, but as always, I won't charge any money before the PCBs are actually ready for shipping. I *hope* shipping will be before Christmas 2008. If not, then early in 2009.

About the pricing:

It's 27.00 Euros per board as usual, plus shipping and handling of 8 Euros.
If you are buying sets that include Tau boards for the Dim T or Dim TD version, you don't have to pay these 8 Euros S&H - that's a discount because you don't make _full_ use of a Tau board in the Subtle Chorus configuration.
(I'm sorry I can't give a higher discount, or a discount on Tau boards independent on Subtle Chorus orders - that would be unfair towards Bridechamber who have made the Tau re-run possible by buying a large number or boards and reselling them.)

So the pricing will be:

EUR 54.00 + 8.00 for a classic Dim D emulation
EUR 81.00 + 0.00 for the Dim T
EUR 108.00 + 0.00 for the full-blown Dim TD

If you only want a BBD board, that's EUR 27.00 + 4.00

Options are shown here:
http://www.jhaible.heim.at/subtle_chorus/jh_subtle_chorus.html

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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v8pete



Joined: Jan 27, 2008
Posts: 43
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Jurgen - will you be making the Main Board available for order separately, as I already have two Tau boards from you that I'd like to use?
Cheers,
Pete
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numbertalk



Joined: May 05, 2008
Posts: 980
Location: Austin, TX
Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I would also like the full blown Dim TD but already have an extra Tau board, so would only need 1 Tau board, 1BBD board and 1 Main board.

v8pete wrote:
Hi Jurgen - will you be making the Main Board available for order separately, as I already have two Tau boards from you that I'd like to use?
Cheers,
Pete
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johans121



Joined: Jun 19, 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Memphis, TN (USA)

PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am definitely down for some boards, however before I sign up I want to understand the difference, sonically, between the DimD and the DimT.

Are they >radically< different sounding subtle chorus effects, or are they similar but just performed via different methods? i.e. what will I gain by building a DimTD vs just a DimD or a DimT?

Thanks,
Jim
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v8pete wrote:
Hi Jurgen - will you be making the Main Board available for order separately, as I already have two Tau boards from you that I'd like to use?
Cheers,
Pete


Yes of course.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

numbertalk wrote:
I would also like the full blown Dim TD but already have an extra Tau board, so would only need 1 Tau board, 1BBD board and 1 Main board.


No problem either.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

johans121 wrote:
I am definitely down for some boards, however before I sign up I want to understand the difference, sonically, between the DimD and the DimT.

Are they >radically< different sounding subtle chorus effects, or are they similar but just performed via different methods? i.e. what will I gain by building a DimTD vs just a DimD or a DimT?

Thanks,
Jim


When I have my own prototype ready, I'll make more demos.
Right now, I don't even have a 1st prototype of the Main board. Smile

In the mean time, I think I have a demonstration up here:
http://electro-music.com/forum/phpbb-files/dim_tau_1_r8b_trim_121.wav

and a longer version should be here:
http://www.lulu.com/content/2136864

(just the Dim T version - not Dim D)

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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johans121



Joined: Jun 19, 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Memphis, TN (USA)

PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
and a longer version should be here:
http://www.lulu.com/content/2136864

(just the Dim T version - not Dim D)

JH.


Damn that sounds good!!! I can't wait to hear the DimD!

As I said, I am definitely on board for some boards! I just need to hear both so I can figure out what I want (and as other said, I currently have an extra Tau board.... I now have to figure out if I want it for another phaser or sacrifice it for a DimT Smile)

-Jim
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

schemos online

http://www.jhaible.heim.at/subtle_chorus/jh_subtle_chorus.html

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jeffery girlsbottom



Joined: Jun 22, 2008
Posts: 27
Location: OZ

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
So the pricing will be:

EUR 54.00 + 8.00 for a classic Dim D emulation
EUR 81.00 + 0.00 for the Dim T
EUR 108.00 + 0.00 for the full-blown Dim TD


Hi, am I to understand that to have/build the full-blown Dim TD, you have the capabilities of all the other modes?
As in, if I buy the full-blown Dim TD will I be able to get the exact same effect/sound that I would get from the
"EUR 54.00 + 8.00 for a classic Dim D emulation" set?
or the Dim T ?
Like, will the Dim TD with all its more boards and components not be able to get the same sound or effect as the single Dim D or Dim T ?
Obviously the Dim TD is better, but i'm concerned as to how much of a difference there is between the "Dim D sound" when using either of the Dim TD or Dim D or Dim T pcbs/sets etc?
Or will the Dim TD sound different when trying to do only the Dim D or Dim T sound compared to those; Dim D and Dim T which have less boards.
Can you achieve the exact exact same sound with the Dim TD trying to do the Dim D sound as you would with the Dim D set/pcb?
I assume with the Dim TD you have in addition all the other modes or options. but are these faithful to the same quality of a single pcb etc?

Also what is with the Tau boards? to have a full-blown Dim TD, would I need to also buy Tau pcbs? or what ??


cheers
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jeffery girlsbottom wrote:
Quote:
So the pricing will be:

EUR 54.00 + 8.00 for a classic Dim D emulation
EUR 81.00 + 0.00 for the Dim T
EUR 108.00 + 0.00 for the full-blown Dim TD


Hi, am I to understand that to have/build the full-blown Dim TD, you have the capabilities of all the other modes?


Yes.

Quote:
As in, if I buy the full-blown Dim TD will I be able to get the exact same effect/sound that I would get from the
"EUR 54.00 + 8.00 for a classic Dim D emulation" set?
or the Dim T ?


Yes.

It will be clearer when I'll have made a drawing about how all will be connected together.

It's quite easy: The famous Vintage 4-Button Chorus consists of two delay units (implemented with BBDs) and a lot of audio processing (filtering, mixing and cross-mixing between channels).

I have put the BBD part (plus some extras of my own) on one PCB, and the Audio Processing part on a separate PCB.
And as an option, you can replace the BBD board with a pair of all pass filters (two Tau PCBs).
So you can either use BBDs or Tau's for the delay functions.
If you choose to have both ("Dim TD"), you simply feed the signal that's send from the Main Board to *both*: the BBD, and the two Tau's, and route the output signal of these back to the Main board via a switch, to choose one or the other.


Quote:
Also what is with the Tau boards? to have a full-blown Dim TD, would I need to also buy Tau pcbs? or what ??
cheers


Yes - that's why the full Dim TD set is rather expensive, compared to the other options: It consists of 4 PCBs. (Main + BBD + 2 * Tau)

Alternatively, if you already have two Tau's as standalone units and don't want to buy two extra Tau PCBs just to get the Dim T or Dim TD function, you can also use the Main Board and "Send" / "Return" Jacks to hook up the external Tau Phasers.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jeffery girlsbottom



Joined: Jun 22, 2008
Posts: 27
Location: OZ

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh ok, thank you.

Excuse the obvious dreaded inexperience. with the vintage Roland Dim D, the 4 modes were just higher chorus depths right? and not in anyway changing the rate/speed? I though you were able to press 2 or more modes at the same time, so that a much heavier effect was obtained. not sure where I got this assumption, or perhaps I'm thinking of the Juno 60/6 choruses? isnt the user able to hold/press both modes to achieve again, a richer effect? - that is, on the Juno 60/6 but obviously not the 106, as I own a 106.

This "Subtle Chorus" consists of the Roland Dimension D emulation, as well as a JHaible unique design.
Ok clear.
*But not an emulation of the Roland Juno 60/6(excluding a difference in the 106?), and not an emulation of the CE-1 correct? They would be, and hopefully will be another seperate design?
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jeffery girlsbottom wrote:
Roland Dim D, the 4 modes were just higher chorus depths right?


Far from it. There's a lot more going on.

Quote:
I though you were able to press 2 or more modes at the same time, so that a much heavier effect was obtained. not sure where I got this assumption,


Right.
Here is my analysis of what's going on:
http://www.jhaible.heim.at/subtle_chorus/dim_d_switches.pdf
and here is the way I'll handle this in my Subtle Chorus:
http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-29103.html


Quote:
*But not an emulation of the Roland Juno 60/6


Not sure. It's definitely not a copy of the Jono circuit, but the function is remarkably similar. Using shorter BBDs will help, or clocking them higher.
I'm sure somebody with more time than I have will try this with a BBD board as standalone unit, and share his/her results.
With the onboard extra LFO on the BBD board, I'm providing the means to emulate the Juno chorus modes to a certain degree, I hope.
How close it will come - we'll see.

Quote:
and not an emulation of the CE-1 correct? They would be, and hopefully will be another seperate design?


CE-1 is a different thing alltogether.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Prototype PCB from Olimex arrived today.
I've started soldering.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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kokoon



Joined: Jan 09, 2006
Posts: 158
Location: slovenia

PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

*drum roll*
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johans121



Joined: Jun 19, 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Memphis, TN (USA)

PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

kokoon wrote:
*drum roll*


No kidding! Wink

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-Jim
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Finished soldering. Still testing.
Found two minor issues so far which can easily be corrected before the PCB goes into production.

Good news: I tried BD139 and BD140 as a replacement for the original Japanese transistors in the output stages, and the results are very promising so far.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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johans121



Joined: Jun 19, 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Memphis, TN (USA)

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
Finished soldering. Still testing.
Found two minor issues so far which can easily be corrected before the PCB goes into production.

Good news: I tried BD139 and BD140 as a replacement for the original Japanese transistors in the output stages, and the results are very promising so far.

JH.


My wallet is starting to sweat with anticipation Smile

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-Jim
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It works.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,

here comes the order form for the Subtle Chorus PCBs.
As there are several options which boards to use, please follow the directions for filling out this order form very closely.
For options, see
http://www.jhaible.heim.at/subtle_chorus/jh_subtle_chorus.html

Directions for using the order form:

1. Email subject line: I have to see which boards you order in which quantiy without opening the mail.
Please write the subject line in the following form, filling in the actual numbers for [n]:

"Subtle Chorus order: [n] Main / [n] BBD / [n] Tau"

Example for ordering 5 sets for the emulation of a classic subtle chorus effect:
Subtle Chorus order: 5 Main / 5 BBD

Example for ordering just 3 BBD boards:
Subtle Chorus order: 3 BBD

Example for ordering one Dim T set (uses two Tau boards instead of BBDs):
Subtle Chorus order: 1 Main / 2 Tau

Example for one Full Dim TD setup:
Subtle Chorus order: 1 Main / 1 BBD / 2 Tau

2. Email Text: Basically you just copy and paste the text given below, fill in the quantities of the boards you want (replace [0] with the actual number, without the brackets),
fill in your shipping adress and paypal adress at the end, and then send me that email.
Shipping adress: Write it *exactly* as you want it to appear on the envelope of the package I'm sending you.
Your name, adress, zip code, country - everything that's required for you to receive a package from abroad.
(Paypal adress not required for German customers.)


Order Form starts here:

=================================================================================

Email subjet line: "Subtle Chorus order: [n] Main / [n] BBD / [n] Tau"

=================================================================================

Email text:

I'm ordering

[0] Subtle Chorus Main PCBs for EUR 27.00 per board, plus

[0] Subtle Chorus BBD PCBs for EUR 27.00 per board, plus

[0] Tau PCBs for EUR 27.00 per board, plus

EUR 8.00 for shipping and handling per order.
(No shipping charges if your order contains at least two Tau boards and one Main board.)


There may be addional tax and / or customs fees in my country - these will
be paid by me (the buyer), not by the seller.

I'm aware that I'm only buying blank PCBs that may help me building an
electonic module - I'm *not* buying a diy kit, not a "project" - just pieces
of FR4 with copper traces.
I know how to build electronic circuits and I am trained in electrical safety matters.
The seller of these PCBs will not be held responsible for any damage that results
from these PCBs, directly or indirectly.

This is a binding pre-order.
There is no guarantee as to when the PCBs will be ready for shipping, but
I only have to pay when the boards are actually available and ready for shipping.
Estimated shipping time: Dec 2008 if we're extremely lucky - Jan 2009 more likely.


My adress is:

[Full shipping adress, as it will appear on the envelope for sending you the

PCBs]

My paypal adress is:

[your paypal adress]

========================================================================================

(Don't forget the email subject line with the number of individual PCBs ! )

Looking forward to hear from you,

JH.

(If you don't know my email adress, you canfind it on my web site.)

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,

I've made first tests with my Subtle Chorus prototype, recorded some rough audio files, and made an update to my web site.

Oberheim OB-8 Brass sound
(starts dry, then Dim D modes 1 ... 6 are turned on, with switching back to dry between each mode)
http://www.jhaible.heim.at/subtle_chorus/subtle_chorus_ob8brass_modes1to6.mp3

Oberheim OB-8 Percussive sound
(starts dry, then Dim D modes 1 ... 6 are turned on, with switching back to dry between each mode)
http://www.jhaible.heim.at/subtle_chorus/subtle_chorus_percussive_modes1to6.mp3

Vocal processing (don't laugh at my singing!)
Bypass mode:
http://www.jhaible.heim.at/subtle_chorus/subtle_chorus_vocal_bypass.mp3
Mode 1:
http://www.jhaible.heim.at/subtle_chorus/subtle_chorus_vocal_mode1.mp3
Mode 2:
http://www.jhaible.heim.at/subtle_chorus/subtle_chorus_vocal_mode2.mp3

CS-80 with "Dim T" processing (using two Tau phasers instead of BBDs):
http://electro-music.com/forum/phpbb-files/dim_tau_1_r8b_trim_121.wav
longer version of 18MB *wav is available here:
http://www.lulu.com/content/2136864

Link to updated web site with photos:
http://www.jhaible.heim.at/subtle_chorus/jh_subtle_chorus.html

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jfromel



Joined: May 27, 2008
Posts: 78
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:07 am    Post subject: Chip Set Group Buy Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Would anyone be interested in doing a group buy for the chip set 2- NE570, 2- MN3101, and 2- MN3007? If there was enough participation I could get the price to about $20.00 shipped per set
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whomper



Joined: Dec 15, 2007
Posts: 200
Location: Israel
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I would be interested in 2 sets.
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ach_gott



Joined: Sep 09, 2008
Posts: 79
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I would do two as well.

That reminds me, what the hell ever happened to the SDIY AD2006 buy? I never got a thing!
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

project endangered

First of all, sorry for bringing this up here.
But this latest PCB project of mine, from reactions I got over the past
months, looked like it would turn out to become the most sought-after of all
I've offered so far.
But pre-orders come in slowly - in fact more slowly than for any previous
project.
I'm not complaining. I haven't asked for any money in advance, so I can
probably just let it die a quiet death without hurting anybody.
On the other hand, maybe word has got around that I'm normally making more
PCBs than I have on pre-order, and people are speculating that they might
decide on buying a set of PCBs later. Well, the catch is: If I don't have
enough pre-orders, it's not going to happen at all. I really hesitate to
invest 2500 Dollars for a big PCB run without pre-orders to prevent me from
*loosing* money in the end.

Thanks for listening, and sorry for what looks like spam. I don't want to
convince anybody to buy this - I just say *if* you want to participate in
this, if would be helpful if you'd pre-order it *now*.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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