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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Developers' Corner
Din Sync Shuffle
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ar2jr



Joined: Mar 29, 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:21 pm    Post subject: Din Sync Shuffle Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello:

I'm trying to figure out how to shuffle a Din Sync clock signal. Since it would drive other din devices I don't need a divide down circuit. Any info is much appreciated.


-matia
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Luka



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bottom example

http://machines.hyperreal.org/manufacturers/Roland/TR-606/info/drumantix/info/shuffle.txt

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ar2jr



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

what about some way of delaying/processing din clock coming from a kenton pro 2000 with an attenuator for swing.

thanks for the link though.

-matia
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cthulu



Joined: Feb 07, 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have a more or less vague idea that you could insert and "eat up" clock pulses at a regular basis to change
the speed in between the beats. But this would be a stepwise change in the swing and involve some three or
four IC's. You could most certainly do something involving an AVR chip or similar. Some sort of master clock unit...
There probably are circuits like this around.
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cthulu



Joined: Feb 07, 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You could create a master clock unit with swing without a microprocessor and the core of it could look something
like this. The 4053 is switched each 6th clock pulse routing the swing pot differently. Sorry, I don't know any
simpler ways to do it... and this doesn't include the reset or run signals.
Smile


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ar2jr



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

that's a really great idea. what about if it took the clock and reset/start/stop info from an external din sync source?
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cthulu



Joined: Feb 07, 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You could make that work. I don't have any DIN machines and I don't remember how it works. I think
the other two signals are really easy to realise and we have a leftover 4013 half for S/R action. Two NAND
gates are unused too. I'd need to read up on it but you can take it from here if you like. Hm... you could probably
make some really sick grooves if you put in a switch to make the 4017 reset from other counts than 6...

Last edited by cthulu on Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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cthulu



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Something like this... When you set the 4013 RUN goes and stays high and there is a reset pulse for a couple
of ms. You can stop the LFO by tying one of the legs of it's gates to the RUN signal. That way it would behave
in a more consistent manner. You can also take the clock from the other gate if this one don't work.


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cthulu



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Right... now I'm sleepless.

Doepfer on sync.
http://www.doepfer.de/faq/gen_faq.htm#Sync
DIn sync wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_sync

Apparently the reset signal isn't needed but now it's there anyway.
Now it could be ready for breadborad.

The clock is held high during stop so this way it will give the reset, if needed, time to finnish. Also the 4017
is resetted during stop so it will start from zero every time and you will get the swing action on the same clock
beats every time.
I don't know about the resistors on the outputs. There should be some protection anyway, if this won't work
then some buffers would be needed.



Happy bugghunting!


Oskar


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cthulu



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Still on the case.

I added a mode switch. In position 4 it's the same swing function as earlier. The other positions I don't really
know, better to breadboard to find out what pins of the 4017 to tap rather than to try to visualise the steps.
I also changed the reset section to trig as the graphic shows but I don't really know if the reset is supposed
to be high and go low or vice versa. Someone else please? I couldn't find any information about it. The only
thing is a vague memory of someone, perhaps Craig Anderton, mentioning that there is this thing that needs
to be pulled low before you hit run and that it could be just a simple momentary switch... I don't even know if
that was a roland sync thingo!?? Confused

Anyway the way I intend it to operate is.
When you hit start:
1. run goes high
2. reset pulse
3. first clock pulse

When you hit stop:
1. run goes low, 4017 resets to 0 and 4017 clock input is put and held high. This way insures that the clock
needs to first go low before the 4017 is clocked so the reset is given time to do it's thing.

I just remembered that a friend of mine got an 808 and he is getting one of these soon if it turns out to work
as it should.

ps. If someone knows of circuits to achieve swing please show me to it! Smile


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211



Joined: Jul 18, 2006
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Location: Marseille - France

PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cthulu, it looks really great !

I might be interressed building this design for my 606, I just have a small question.

Your din shuffle device seems to be only Master as it contain a clock circuit.
The overkill feature would be it can be synced as slave by an external clock.

This way, your interface could be synced by a standart midi to dinsync device.

Do you think It could be possible, as in your design the Clock pot and the lag circuit are tied together ?
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cthulu



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Salut!
211 wrote:
cthulu, it looks really great !
I might be interressed building this design for my 606, I just have a small question.

Definitely breadboard first. And help spot errors in the drawing prior to that... I just knocked this one up in a creative frenzy but... it's not that many parts really and the logics seems to add up.

Quote:

Your din shuffle device seems to be only Master as it contain a clock circuit.
The overkill feature would be it can be synced as slave by an external clock.

This way, your interface could be synced by a standart midi to dinsync device.

Do you think It could be possible, as in your design the Clock pot and the lag circuit are tied together ?


I really wouldn't know where to start to solve that one. Sorry. Crying or Very sad
You would probably need to go into programming but then just about anything is possible. I'm just not an ace of a hacker...

ce tout!


oskar
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cthulu



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

But if you have midi at your hands then you can let midi regulate the swing, check earlier on in this thread.

Eventually you could do some sort of odd fixed division like the solution in the Re-Bop thread that I started...
but then you would have to run the drummachine at a much higher tempo than the rest of the equipment and I
don't know midi that well. I'm not really compatible with modern technology and I guess that's why
I ended up here in the first place.
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211



Joined: Jul 18, 2006
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Location: Marseille - France

PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yep I know all the (boring) tricks to add shuffle to the 606..

In fact, I ever played with some 4017 for a din synced step sequencer.
All the reset / start / stop circuit is based on CGS gate sequencer.

I sync it as slave with my 606. To sync the same devices at the same tempo, I have to divide the din clock by 6, before feeding the divided clock into a second 4017, which is the sequencer core.

I use a 4017 as clock divider and use exactly the same trick as you.
I thought it was possible to route the 6th pulse of the din sync clock to a variable lag circuit. Then replace the lagged pulse in place where the 6th pulse of the regular clock should be.

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cthulu



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice, so I'm not alone with that circuit. I must admit that I didn't look that much on the other sequencers
before I did the Re-Bop, because I got so inspired when I found the dbop files that I just went into a zombie
like CAD mode... and if I had done that I would probably have realised that:
A. There are amazing sequensers around on this forum. Like the Klee...
B. The minimalistic ones around are simpler than mine so I don't really fill a need.
Very Happy Oh well, you live and you learn...


Idea If you cut in an xor in the clock path you can add a half clock tick by just changing states on the other
pin and subtract one half tick by also changing states on the other pin but on the same time as the clock and
filter away possible ripple.
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211



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I found some info on a german forum about the ShuffleBox you can find on Youtube.

It's PIC based. The box contain an optocoupler, one PIC and one pot.
The code count the first 6 step of the clock signal, then shift the 6 next. A the end of the 12th it simply go to the first line of code.

The author says the din signal is usually a 2ms pulse signal. Don't seems to need a real square.

I don't know anything about PIC prog. The only thing I though with CMOS/analogue is :

- clock a 12 counter by the main clock, din signal or Pot driven oscillator
- the first 6 outputs of the counter trig a 2ms pulse generator
- the 6 last outputs trig the 2ms pulse generator thru a lag generator
- the 12 outputs are summed with an opamp creating the shuffled clock.

The harder thing is probably to find the maximum lag time who works from 40 to 200 bpm
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cthulu



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm tempted to get on the job at coding something for an AVR processor, it shouldn't be that much work involved.
The problem is I don't have any Roland sync machines to try it on.
No swing for me... Crying or Very sad
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Luka



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ill ship my 606 to you if you add swing pot to it Smile
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ar2jr



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

have to say that I am absoluetely thrilled by the course this discussion has taken. unfortinatly I sold most of my din machines except for the tr 808 and jupiter 8 so I won't be able to loan anything out for experimentation.

but if there are things that I can build and test with my set up let me know and i'll get on it.

perhaps we could develop a really nice shuffle box for all us Din Sync fanatics Smile i'm thinking call it "Swing 24"



-matia
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BOB-SNARE



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cthulu wrote:
I'm tempted to get on the job at coding something for an AVR processor, it shouldn't be that much work involved.
The problem is I don't have any Roland sync machines to try it on.
No swing for me... Crying or Very sad


I've done a MIDI to Swinging DINSync with an AVR. I got distracted by the sloppy MIDI timing from USB MIDI interfaces,
especially using a MIDISPort 2x2 with Ableton. Anybody know anything
about writing USB device drivers?
As far as I can tell, MOTU are the only ones who have...everybody else uses the standard usbaudio.sys
Where was I...
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midgetfidget



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Maybe some other aussies here might remember these, but a member of Clan Analogue used to make boxes call the "swing-a-lizer" or something like that.

They were kind of a din master clock that put out all types of swing, from mild to just crazy. Maybe there's schematics out there somewhere...
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BOB-SNARE



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

midgetfidget wrote:
Maybe some other aussies here might remember these, but a member of Clan Analogue used to make boxes call the "swing-a-lizer" or something like that.

They were kind of a din master clock that put out all types of swing, from mild to just crazy. Maybe there's schematics out there somewhere...


It was the Swingchronizer. And it has MIDI out too, and reverse swing and triplet mode. I <3 swung 808.
Only problem is using it with a DAW for multi-pass recording.
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