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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
"Son Of Storm Tide" Flanger
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interested?
yes
97%
 97%  [ 40 ]
no
2%
 2%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 41

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jumunius



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sduck wrote:
Ok, my guess now is that you've got bad/fake delay chips. There's a rash of fake chips going around - maybe you've got some of those. Earlier in this thread there's some posts about this. I kind of took a chance and bought 12 chips from UTsource, and they all worked. Do you have any way of testing your chips? Or getting new/different ones? I'll happily send you my extra ones if that'll help, - pm me (don't expect fast replies - crazy holiday schedule).


This was my initial thought, since one of the 6 chips I bought off eBay turned out to be the source of my problems with my Triple Chorus. However, I swapped these TDAs into the Triple Chorus and they appear to work. But just in case I went back last night and checked all the relevant pins (clock ins, audio in, out) on the TDAs and find that they appear to be doing what they should.

The debug process did uncover one wiring fault, btw -- my BBD invert wasn't working, and it turns out I'd accidentally used the ground wire where I was supposed to be leaving it unconnected. So improvements happen.

I'm back to thinking there's something funky with the various clock and modulation sources. I guess I'll just start running through every chip, component, connection, etc, on page 1-2 of the schematics.

Thanks for your continued advice -- it can be frustrating doing this in a vacuum. Smile

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The Bad Producer



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I haven't got around to building this yet, but one thing I did notice with the Solina Chorus (re the clocking) was that only some CD4011's worked and were able to clock the BBD's, not sure I can remember why (it was some time ago) maybe there is a similar problem with the 4013's?

In fact I think I remember a few people having similar issues, and there is some info in the Solina thread...

(my memory is a bit hazy, sorry!) (It's probably not even relevant!)

Charlie

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jumunius



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The Bad Producer wrote:
I haven't got around to building this yet, but one thing I did notice with the Solina Chorus (re the clocking) was that only some CD4011's worked and were able to clock the BBD's, not sure I can remember why (it was some time ago) maybe there is a similar problem with the 4013's?

In fact I think I remember a few people having similar issues, and there is some info in the Solina thread...

(my memory is a bit hazy, sorry!) (It's probably not even relevant!)

Charlie


Thanks for the thought, and worthy of investigation. I remember the same stuff from my Solina build, although I didn't have that issue on mine.

So regarding the flanger at hand, I have just scoped the clock pins on my TDA chips again and it appears that the pulse is noisy -- imagine a square wave with a bit of higher frequency fuzz at the +/- peaks. I wonder if this could be related.

Unfortunately I'm not sure whether the Solina/4011 fix necessarily applies, but my understanding of these CMOS chips isn't great so I'll have to play around. In the case of the Solina, it was determined that placing a 33pf cap between pins 1 (input) and 16 (gnd) cleaned up the pulse signal, which wasn't always starting. (?) In the case of the Flanger, the clock is determined by a combination of a 4049 and a 4013.

Could I clean up my signal with a cap? Any ideas? I wish I'd socketed my CMOS chips -- no idea why I didn't, maybe I ran out of sockets that day?!? Ease of swapping would make things a bit easier.

[Edited to fix the description of Serenadi's Solina mod]

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jumunius



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

PS. Interestingly, to understand Bounce, you should scope your clock pins, turn Bounce up, and then (with no other modulation going) sweep your manual knob up and down. The clock frequency appears at least to bounce like a ball back down to wherever the knob ends up. At least that's how it looked to me. Crazy feature.
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jumunius



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, no longer think the noise in the clock signal is the problem. The clock on my Solina Chorus has a similar noise "feature", but the Solina Chorus works fine.

I've had some success with LFO and some other weirdness, maybe just from continued minor adjustments and re-sweeping of the board. Here's a summary of remaining problems and if you have a working build please chime in about #1.

1) The "thump" appears related to crossing 0v of CV. So, if I center my manual knob at 12:00 or so, and add triangle LFO mod, I will hear thumping with every swing. If I don't use the LFO but just manually sweep my Manual pot up and down, the thump always happens around 12:00 as well. Does anyone else have this effect? The good news is that I think the thing sounds pretty good when I set the center comfortably above (or below) 0v and then choose an LFO mod amount that doesn't put my past 0v.

[ETA: I just realized this does not happen when I invert the Res. A clue?]

2) all pass filter does nothing. I swear I checked that wiring but I have to recheck (and look back through this thread) to see if there's anything I'm missing.

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jumunius



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jumunius wrote:
1) The "thump"


Hmmm, after all that, this appears to have disappeared, may have been related to a bad connection on one of my channels -- a mere wiring issue? Embarassed

jumunius wrote:
all pass filter does nothing.


Still an issue although many people appear to have this issue. Jürgen's Storm Tide Flanger page claims this has a massive effect on the stereo signal but I'm not hearing it.

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jumunius



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jumunius wrote:
jumunius wrote:
1) The "thump"


Hmmm, after all that, this appears to have disappeared, may have been related to a bad connection on one of my channels -- a mere wiring issue? Embarassed



No, it's still there. Only really apparent when long bbd + normal (non-inverted) resonance is on.

Sorry for all the postings, I keep intending to put the thing down for the night and then I keep going.

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The Bad Producer



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jumunius wrote:

Sorry for all the postings, I keep intending to put the thing down for the night and then I keep going.


Don't apologise!

It's really useful when building to have these notes as reference, just in case!

Only sorry I can't help as I've not got around to building it yet, and I'm no EE!

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jumunius



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The Bad Producer wrote:


Don't apologise!

It's really useful when building to have these notes as reference, just in case!


Thanks, glad someone finds the monologue useful. Unfortunately it seems most of what I offer so far is a bunch of the usual wiring and solder problems.

But here's a nugget for you, since people seem a little unclear about APF. After rechecking the schematics my problem became obvious. I was trying to hear the effect of APF on the direct channel whilst my "Mix" setting was up at maximum CW. APF only affects the Direct Path -- the CCW end of the Mix pot.

So... APF is best heard as a stereo effect, and is most useful when you set your FX Mix somewhere between CCW and CW. It's supposed to add more width and a bit of the sweetness of phase. To my ear the combo almost sounds a bit chorusy at times. I'm glad I figured this out because I remembered thinking this Flanger was supposed to be capable of warmth and sweetness as well as the typical cold, resonant weirdness. And indeed now that I know how to set it, it does that.

But for the record, so far I don't hear much a difference when I invert the Direct Path. There IS a difference, just subtle. Maybe it varies more with the right source sound or context.

The Bad Producer wrote:
I'm no EE!


Or a "Bad EE" at least? Wink

Ok, back to the grind -- still working on the thump.

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sduck



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, that's been my experience with the APF. It's a subtle effect, but quite nice depending on the kind of signal involved and and the mix setting. I also thought mine was broken initially, but soon found that it indeed works wonders in certain situations.
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jumunius



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Anyone bring the Clock Tune trimmer out to the front panel? It's actually pretty fun to play with. You can get all sorts of very fast BBD delay effects at the low tunings. And once you add the stereo effects, it's madness, sounds phenomenal.

I think I'm going to do this... replace the LED with the trimmer perhaps. Given that Jürgen didn't ever get to that BBD delay maybe it's the next best thing.

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jumunius



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

And a second idea to file under "no I don't have mine 'working' yet but I'm still thinking of easy ways to mod my build":

I'm thinking of adding an ON-ON-ON switch (wouldn't you agree there aren't enough switches in this thing?) to vary the range of the manual pot. The current manual pot setting sweeps from -15v to +15v. For the switch, one setting would set the range to CCW = -15v and CW is ground, another setting would set CCW = ground and CW is +15v, and the mid position would keep the existing sweep. See attached hasty drawing.

The reason I suggest this is twofold: I find the existing bipolar control counterintuitive for some activities -- weird to hear the pitch go up to 12:00 and then back down as you sweep CW from there. Secondly, in most cases when you are trying to get a smooth sweep from the LFO (be it the onboard triangle or perhaps an external sine) it will be easier to find a good center with more range on the pot.


flanger_manualswitch.JPG
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On-On-On switch suggestion for the SOST flanger.
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flanger_manualswitch.JPG



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jumunius



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

PS. Actually can someone confirm that with resonance on and no modulation (bounce, cv, env, etc), they experience the same thing sweeping the Manual pot? CW and CCW sound pretty much the same, with 12:00 or so being the highest pitch achieved?

Unfortunately SDuck's video never shows this circumstance. (Should have made it last 12 minutes I guess....)

PPS. Happy New Year.

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zthee



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Would it be possible to have an external signal mixed with the LFO?

My guess would be to mix the two at the CV input, on the LFO-waveforms connectors? (With a basic op-amp mixer.)

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jumunius



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

zthee wrote:
Would it be possible to have an external signal mixed with the LFO?

My guess would be to mix the two at the CV input, on the LFO-waveforms connectors? (With a basic op-amp mixer.)


This already exists actually. Very Happy

All the CV signals (Envelope, LFO, External CV, Manual Knob) sum on P1 of the schematic, before being sent to the TDA clocks (via the Bounce circuitry if you have your Bounce pot set above CCW).

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zthee



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks! I TOTALLY missed that input.
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bergman



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:43 am    Post subject: Storm tide PCB Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi guys, i know this might be a lil bit off-topic but i don't know where else to ask this.

Is there a way to order a "son of storm tide" pcb now that the great JH has passed away? I would also be interested in a krautrock phaser pcb.

Any help will be MUCH appreciated.

Thanks in advance
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jumunius



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:15 am    Post subject: Re: Storm tide PCB Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bergman wrote:
Is there a way to order a "son of storm tide" pcb now that the great JH has passed away? I would also be interested in a krautrock phaser pcb.


Not at the moment. According to other threads, eventually someone will take up the responsibility of selling existing pcbs and maybe re-releases as well. For now, there's grieving, legal/estate issues, and logistics to get through first.

In the meantime try the component trade boards here and at muffwiggler.

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bergman



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

many thanks jumunius! I'll have a look there :O)
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tiego



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hi there
I would like to extract the enveloppe follower signal for other uses, but the only thing i could do is get it from one of the ENV MOD pot ends,(just as I did for the LFO ) and the release there has no effect, would anyone know where / how to get it from?
thanks
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jumunius



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tiego wrote:
hi there
I would like to extract the enveloppe follower signal for other uses, but the only thing i could do is get it from one of the ENV MOD pot ends,(just as I did for the LFO ) and the release there has no effect, would anyone know where / how to get it from?
thanks


Probably the anode side of D1? Should it pass through its own diode perhaps to protect the env follower circuitry?

Let me know how this goes... not a bad idea. Very Happy

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tiego



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks Jumunius I 'll try to find that on PCB
Total newbie at electronics (i bought the SOST built), do you think I could damage anything if I forget about the diode?
I did solder directly the LFO outs from the corresponding switch to the tip of a jack. I will add the resistor as recommended in this thread though...
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jumunius



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tiego wrote:
thanks Jumunius I 'll try to find that on PCB
Total newbie at electronics (i bought the SOST built), do you think I could damage anything if I forget about the diode?
I did solder directly the LFO outs from the corresponding switch to the tip of a jack. I will add the resistor as recommended in this thread though...


Frankly I don't know how it would work without, but in the absence of anyone more experienced/knowledgeable speaking up, I'd say you'd be safer if you had one. They are one of the more common diodes, 1N4148, and so long as you orient it the same way as the one on the board (anode side wired to board, cathode side wired to your jack) you should be ok.

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tiego



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

aah ok, to the electronic shop tomorrow then , thanks Jumunius!
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tiego



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

it does work , from either point of D1; ( works the same from the amount pot mid point still I am looking for a point where to get the ENV signal after the release control stage but before the amount stage...
(meaning I can use the env full level externally without cranking the amount inside the SOST)[/quote]
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