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-5 to +5 octave and semitone switching board any interest ?
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diablojoy



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:14 am    Post subject: -5 to +5 octave and semitone switching board any interest ?
Subject description: edit :board design revisited
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

following on from rykhard's good work
i have been designing a board for myself
and thought i might share this for any it may suit
as i will be ordering boards for myself in any case
there are some changes in the implementation from rykhard's schematic and one
major limitation which is if the board is to be mounted on
the rotary switches as it is designed to do both the type of switch and the hole centres are obviously predetermined
note : hole centres are fixed at 35 mm
switches are the same ones jaycar in australia sells
I cannot guarantee if any others would fit
the board can be rotated for vertical or horizontal placement
with knob pointer positions remaining correct also works best with
SMT 1206 0.1% resistors however normal metal film resistors can be kludged on, that was how i tested the first single sided prototype
next board will be double sided plated through hole
board size is 34mm x 110mm to fit 1 RU space, I am space disadvantaged
width wise
board cost at a guess would be somewhere around $10.00 AUD
depending on numbers

edit: revisiting this design to give it a wider appeal 11/07/12

cheers
denis.


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Last edited by diablojoy on Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:23 pm; edited 2 times in total
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RF



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Could you post a schematic of what you are doing here?

Thanks!

bruce

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fluxmonkey



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

RF wrote:
Could you post a schematic of what you are doing here?

Thanks!

bruce


how does this compare to the octave switcher already available from Elby: http://www.elby-designs.com/synth-modules/octave/octave.htm ?

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diablojoy



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

will post schematic soon.
I looked at elby's design quite some time ago and while ok it didn't provide me with all that i wanted
firstly it relies on a very good stable power supply as
it has no voltage ref's
also it only provides for positive output/ octave up and i wanted to be able to have octave down as well
and finally it is only octaves not semitones as well. [single rotary switch]
in the end i decided to do my own as i could not find anything completely suitable. rykhards schematic's provided a good starting point
the semitone section is pretty much exactly the same just different
resistance values i used 100k for all the divider networks
the octave switching is a done differently however as i used the
LM336z/5 trim ability to set the reference to exactly +5 volts for one side
and -5 volts for the other.
switch positions give the following



[/list]octave switch
-5 octaves -5 volts
-4 octaves -4 volts
-3 octaves -3 volts
-2 octaves -2 volts
-1 octaves -1 volt
0 ground
+1 octave +1 volt
+2 octaves +2 volts
+3 octaves +3 volts
+4 octaves +4 volts
+5 octaves +5 volts


semitone switch
0 ground
+1 semitone .0833 volts
+2 semitone .166 volts
+3 semitone .25 volts
+4 semitone .334 volts
+5 semitone .416 volts
+6 semitone .5 volts
+7 semitone .583 volts
+8 semitone .665 volts
+9 semitone .75 volts
+10 semitone .833 volts
+11 semitone .916 volts

    Last edited by diablojoy on Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Uncle Krunkus
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    PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

    Good work Diablojoy,
    One question though.
    How come so many of the switch positions have nothing connected to them? I would have thought you'd need to use them all. Confused

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    diablojoy



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    PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

    they are all used bar one it was the easiest way
    smt resistors directly between the switch post pads [ not shown ]
    the switch pads a far larger then actually necessary to allow for this
    better to guarantee resistance matching of the divider networks
    and a lot less awkward track work. soldering in the resistors is done at the same time as the switches, it isn't that difficult to do as long as long as you stick to a predetermined process
    funnily enough i have found blue tac invaluable at holding smt in place
    whilst soldering and have never had a problem since i started using it.
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    diablojoy



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    PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

    schematic


    OCTAVE AND SEMITONE SWITCH.bmp
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    Uncle Krunkus
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    PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

    Cool. Cool
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    Rykhaard



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    PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

    Whoa! That is absutively PHENOMENAL to see! salut Many salutes of respect and appreciation for taking my design a step further! I'm going to keep watching this one as just yesterday, I thought of finishing my Quadatrix Octave sequencers panel. (I have only 1 of 4 completed, though all 4 semitone sequencers have been running for almost a year now.)

    Following your example would make further building for me 1 hell of a lot easier! Very Happy

    My only thought further, that I've not partaken of myself yet, is lower current offset opamps for the outputs.

    _IF_ I remember correctly, the LF411C / LF412C, were one that I'd found in searching. Others here who have a more current knowledge of opamps will more'n likely be able to recommend others.

    In my current setup, I'm just using whichever TL0xx's that I had lying around and tuning is more than accurate enough, across all 5 sequencers, individually running together, or summed, running together. Smile
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    diablojoy



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    PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

    yes TL072 is just what i had lots of, cheap and plentifull
    and they work just fine,A better spec'd opamp is not really required,IMO
    more of a option really for any who wish it
    better to spend money on the 100K resistors and if really finicky about it perhaps better voltage references.
    I bought a small roll of 100K 0.1% 25 ppm 1206 smt's specifically
    for this project as i plan to build more than a few.
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    Rykhaard



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    PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

    diablojoy wrote:
    yes TL072 is just what i had lots of, cheap and plentifull
    and they work just fine,A better spec'd opamp is not really required,IMO
    more of a option really for any who wish it
    better to spend money on the 100K resistors and if really finicky about it perhaps better voltage references.
    I bought a small roll of 100K 0.1% 25 ppm 1206 smt's specifically
    for this project as i plan to build more than a few.


    I'm going to keep the roll of the 1206 format in mind as well, as for all of mine so far, I 0.1%'d all of the resistors by hand with a higher spec. DMM. Took more'n long enough! lol. (From 1% metal film.)

    My original intention as well, were to build a LOT of sequencers that I could then control in an entire X, Y matrix. Once I get back to work on them, finishing the 3 more octave sequencers, I'll have 4x4 matrii sequencers for the semitone and octave ones. As far as I've played with the 4x4 semi so far, it's been a lot of fun. In one of my videos on youtube, I have the combination (along with the single octave 4 step) doing New Order's Blue Monday bassline, for 16 bars of it. Smile
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    diablojoy



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    PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

    edited board pic see first post fixed output track from tlo72 Embarassed
    added fourth mounting hole so board can be mounted properly
    if not mounted directly to switches [ note : wires run from switch post holes and should preferably be of all the same length if doing this ]
    which will allow for different switches and hole centers
    added values to switch debounce caps

    any suggestions/requests/ for further improvement appreciated
    ie : seperate pads for through hole /smt for divider resistors
    [I might be able to fit them in ]
    value for debounce caps [.01uf was literally the first value i tried
    and sonically at least they work fine ]

    I will be ordering a few prototype boards next month for final testing
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    sonicwarrior



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    PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

    Playing grave digger and answering to Diablojoy's posting here:

    diablojoy wrote:
    the switches are an alpha from memory 1 pole 12 position


    Are these the SR2512F-0112-19R0B-E9-N-W available @Mouser?

    diablojoy wrote:
    I do still have some boards but they require a small kludge Embarassed
    need to cut one trace and run a wire
    SMT resistors are 1206 0.1% x 21


    That kludge is no problem for me. 1206 SMT is also no problem.
    The PCB looks a bit wide though. 11 cm is very much.

    diablojoy wrote:
    recomend LT1057 inplace of TL072 for the best accuracy


    Don't know were to get them. Are LT1013 OK, too? Because I have them.
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    diablojoy



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    PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

    Quote:
    Are these the SR2512F-0112-19R0B-E9-N-W available @Mouser


    could not find that number on mouser
    however i believe the C&K 611-A10003RNCQ looks likely
    very expensive though
    I got my switches from jaycar for around half that price

    Quote:
    The PCB looks a bit wide though. 11 cm is very much.


    The PCB can be used vertically as well as horizontally the switches can be rotated 90 degrees and there are SIL strap points to accomodate the different orientation though i must admit to an error there as well as the flat on the switch shaft is 180 degrees out on the boards i have
    I have since corrected this and the kludge on the latest board revision layout but as there was basically no interest I never had any more boards made .
    The prototypes i originally had made were for my own use so did not really
    intend selling any of those ones, I sent a couple to rykhaard however
    as he did the original work not sure if he has got around to building them.
    Quote:
    Don't know were to get them. Are LT1013 OK, too? Because I have them.

    havent tried that one before
    however pretty much any low offset opamp that replaces a TL072 should offer some improvement
    Its only really noticeable around 0 volts , where a TL072 is about 3 to 4 millivolts off at 0 volts

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    sonicwarrior



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    PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

    diablojoy wrote:
    could not find that number on mouser


    Strange, maybe the Mouser article number 105-SR2512F-112NS works. But I can find it with both @de.mouser.com


    diablojoy wrote:
    however i believe the C&K 611-A10003RNCQ looks likely
    very expensive though


    4,80 € is not that expensive compared to NKK switches but the C&K have a plastic shaft which I don't like on rotary switches.

    diablojoy wrote:
    The PCB can be used vertically as well as horizontally


    That doesn't really make it better as space is either missing vertically or horizontally then.
    I'm thinking about making a different PCB and using 633-MRA112A rotary switches from NKK as they are pretty small. But I would use 3 octave switches on one PCB as I'd like to use them to control 3 VCOs.
    Would be cool to have a sequencer project with 8 of them on one PCB. I think they could be used in a 2 column 8 rows 1" grid format. Of course that would require a daughterboard or massive/full SMT which I doubt would generate much interest.
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    numbertalk



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    PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

    Was there ever a run of boards for this?
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    diablojoy



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    PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

    Quote:
    Was there ever a run of boards for this?

    Not enough interest at the time so it didnt happen
    I made some 50 of the prototype boards for myself
    the majority for VCO's but also a couple of matrix style sequencers and a CV standards module

    Quote:
    I'm thinking about making a different PCB and using 633-MRA112A rotary switches from NKK as they are pretty small. But I would use 3 octave switches on one PCB as I'd like to use them to control 3 VCOs.
    Would be cool to have a sequencer project with 8 of them on one PCB. I think they could be used in a 2 column 8 rows 1" grid format. Of course that would require a daughterboard or massive/full SMT which I doubt would generate much interest.

    Cool a 1" grid spacing would be at least of some more interest to people here i think, though difficult to achieve without as you say full SMT or a daughter board .
    At least the posted schematic will give you some headstart Smile

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    aladan



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    PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

    diablojoy wrote:
    Quote:
    Was there ever a run of boards for this?

    Not enough interest at the time so it didnt happen

    PM'd you re: this Smile

    Last edited by aladan on Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

    Do you have any prototype boards left? I'd be interested.
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    PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

    Quote:
    Do you have any prototype boards left? I'd be interested.


    hmm 3 years on and now there is a little interest -funny how things work
    depending on how many you and aladan wanted i think something could be worked out .
    the original prototypes had a few bugs as i mentioned so if you are cool with that ok I would ask for $5.00 a board including postage.
    and here's a couple of pics to help
    one trace cut just visible between the ceramic cap and the resistor next to the trimmer lower bottom left
    one strap run from +ve to that same resistor
    if board is to be mounted horizontal or vertical the decision must be made prior to stuffing and attention must be paid to the switch orientation and pin numbers and then to which strap points are used having said that i actually got it wrong by 180 degree's so the flat on the switches is off however i use davies 1510 clones and havent had any loosen up on me yet


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    diablojoy



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    PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

    some interest has come up on this lately
    enough to make me decide to do a redesign anyway
    I will try to shrink the board by losing the pcb mounting switches
    which means some wiring will then be required, and go to all thru hole for the SMT disadvantaged .
    maybe a combined output can be added i would like to keep the split output option in there

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    PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

    Finished product looks great diablojoy. Nice touch with the resistors between the pads too.
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    emdot_ambient



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    PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

    Cool! Looks like a very useful little board!
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    diablojoy



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    PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

    Quote:
    Finished product looks great diablojoy. Nice touch with the resistors between the pads too.

    Quote:
    Cool! Looks like a very useful little board

    thanks guys
    they work exceptionally well
    never really understood the lack of interest 3 years ago when i first had them done , OK they aren't the most exciting of things
    however as you say very usefull
    I front end all of my VCO's with them instead of the usual coarse/fine freq pots ,they make a good CV standards module and could also be used in a Sequencer that wouldnt require any quantizing.
    anyway as i have stated I am revisiting this circuit. the new board is about half way through , Its taking me a little longer than i hoped as i am doing it in eagle which i have to learn as i go. [ not the most intuitive program i must say] Also i will be adding a couple of features.
    A CV in summed to the main out - possible arpegiator uses [ Aladan's suggestion]
    plus a fine control pot will be added +/- 50 cents or so for detuning.
    I will be keeping the seperated outs as well
    It will be all through hole , so no SMT required and the switches are no longer on the board , The board should be under 3"x 2" size
    hopefully the changes will draw some more interest

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    PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

    diablojoy wrote:
    ... and the switches are no longer on the board...

    why? it would make it so easy to mount it to the front panel. it would save a ot of wiring. and the footprint you used for the prototypes would fit any standard rotary (like lorlin).

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