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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Les Hall's Projects including eChucK
Something I have been working on
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dioioib



Joined: May 23, 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:13 pm    Post subject: Something I have been working on Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have been working on a development board for the last few months on and off which will use a pic32 as the core, integrates a 32bit dac and has headers for LCD, 64button matrix ( Monome / Tenorion ), one general I/O, microSD slot, Midi In/Out, and USB. It will include off board RAM and EEPROM. The project is almost ready for prototype.

Inventor and I were talking in the chat and he mentioned that the eChuck forum might be the right place to post this. I have been thinking of integrating a DSP into the board as well. Although I have not decided on which one at this time, I am open to dsPic, Analog Devices ADSP, or others. I would like to know what everyone thinks would be the most convenient, and flexible. Think dream Synth / Virtual Modular.

Here is an image of the board thus far its just a 3D mock-up, but I have a lot of room to work with. Unfortunately I don't believe I can make the board the same size as the existing eChuck board, due to the USB, microSD, and Midi Headers. But let me know what you think.

So would the community be interested in something like this and secondly do you have any questions, desires, or concerns?

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

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Stream Operator


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just got done talking with dio in chat. We talked shop and exchanged ideas about stuff. I was very impressed with dio's skill set: circuit board design, programming, digital design, etc. We even coded up a Boolean Sequencer in G2 demo and it made some good music before dio went to bed.

I feel that this digital synth board really adds a lot to the eChucK lineup and will evolve into one heck of a good product in time. Let's all welcome dio into the eChucK fold and take a look at his design.

Les

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Dan Lavin



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dio,

welcome to eChuck, as Les said. Dang! That is one impressive project! I'm all over this! As far as DSP selection goes, I'm not much help there. I can only suggest to work with what you are most comfortable with, even if it's not the latest and greatest. With all the features you list, I don't think its a bad thing it doesn't fit Les' other boards footprint...we'll make do.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

As to the DSP, I have only one comment: since the board has a PIC already, it may make sense to use a dsPIC. That way developers would have only a single development environment to work within when developing code for this board. Just my two cents.

Les

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dioioib



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Agreed, although many people complain about the dsPic only having a 10-bit D/A. I know Microchip has just released a library for the PIC32 which will allow some DSP functions. Incorporating the 32 bit DAC chip outside the PIC 32 could be all we need. The other issue is the cost of development tools. I really am interested in some of what Analog Devices is Saying about the ADSP. But, the cost for Visual DSP++ is expensive, almost too expensive for the hobbyist. Now the development tools for Pic 32 are not free if you want unlimited code size up to 512k, but you do get 64k for free with the C32 compiler.
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dioioib



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well so far 115 views but only two people interested. Smile


Well guys looks like its going to be cheap buying prototype boards. Smile

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well the forum has been quiet the entire Holdiday break, let's wait and see if interest picks up after a few weeks when people get back into the swing of things. Nobody's been posting to the BS/KS thread either.

Les

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magman



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think it might be worth posting a link back to this forum in the Developer's Corner, as this board looks to have a more general focus than just eChuck.

I must admit, I found out about this board from Matrixsynth, as I don't currently have a lot of interest in Chuck, but I think this board could be of interest once I get some of my other projects built.

Regards

Magman
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK I did that magman, thanks.

Les

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rubendelacosta



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

wow
looks like a very cool project!

i cant help, cause i don't know anything about dsp programing or pic...
but i'll keep an eye on this post

good luck,
ruben
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rubendelacosta



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

one suggestion:
Wavetables Very Happy

(maybe it's just asking too much)
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dioioib



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Agreed. Wavetables are a must...

The idea right now is to keep the hardware closed but the software/firmware development open. As this is a board that I am designing for my own personal DSP and synthesis explorations as my codebase grows so will the communities.

The key focus is keeping the development board low cost say around $100-150 but the more I put on this board the higher the price gets.. So keeping an FPGA off the board might be the way to go right now. But the PIC32 and the DAC is a must. Additionally with the new PIC32 DSP library this project is really looking promising.

Some people might be questioning my use of an FTDI USB 232 conversion chip. Well its simple I don't have to write a driver for MAC, so more systems are supported. Although MPLAB is not MAC vBox or any virtualization technology will allow for development, and Linux is included within the vBox fold.

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dioioib



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just realized that there is a project UBW32 which does have MAC functionality with USB on PIC32.

http://www.schmalzhaus.com/UBW32/

I'll look into this and see if I can drop the board size to that of the eChuck and save us a few extra dollars on the board.

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rubendelacosta



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

maybe you can get one at spark fun's free day: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/news.php?id=305

along with some of this cool switch matrix: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=7835

two questions:
would be any on board controls? like potentiometers to control filters and stuff?
and would programing be easy/intuitive for those who don't know much about programing? this is the part that frightens me the most
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toybox



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

like this idea a lot! I can see it growing fairly large if you can get it to catch on the more people the more ideas = more code. makes me wish i knew more about coding then i do. but as for hardware i think some assignable pots and a spot on the board for more optional I/Os mite be nice thinking
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dioioib



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

All of you are giving me great feedback.

Currently the board has I/O headers which could be multiplexed to increase input control. I have designed some input controllers for other projects which I could incorporate as add-on's to the system.

Much like the eChuck concept the system would remain modular. As the project expands I feel like the ease of programming the system would improve. There are still many things that need to be done before it becomes a simple thing for many. If you are interested in a simple DIY, build your own hardware synth, you might wish to check out the midiBox project, or the x0xb0x at lady ada's. They both have some really interesting stuff.

I don't really need the sparkfun board as I own all the developing tools such as a PIC32 starters kit and the PICkit 2 programmer. I'm just looking at getting my first set of prototype boards. The UBW board is still lacking in all the additional components which this board will have, which is why this board will be more of a dedicated hardware synthesizer.

I agree that wavetables are a must, and with the integrated microSD card we could really put as many on there as we need.

But before getting ahead of ourselves lets just step back and look at my intentions of the project and see if they are inline with what your needs are.

I intended on making a development platform. As in something that can be expanded, programmed, and used as the user wishes. This is not to say there will not be basic a software framework to work within. I will need to program the unit for several things including Midi I/O, output to the DAC, interface for the microSD card. Much of this might be available already but with most open source software it can not be sold with the board. So I will be writing my own. If the user is more comfortable using existing C, C++, ASM libraries then even better.

To provide the community with a method of turning there Chuck, Csound, PD, MAX or other files into a hardware platform. This is commonly referred to as DSP / synthesis. With the new addition of the DSP library for PIC32 this has been dramatically simplified. Synthesis design is not easy but as I have found learning and experimentation can be fun and rewarding. However there is a lack of inexpensive development tools suited for the task.

Minimize cost. This is very important and the main reason for using surface mount parts. It was never the intention to have the user build the board, these boards will be assembled, much like the boards you can buy from chip manufacturers or sparkfun. The first prototype boards I will be putting together myself, but if the interest grows I will have them manufactured / assembled at a board house.

Currently I have decided to leave power components off the main board. One reason is cost, the second is if you are anything like myself you own 100 walwart's, from every electronic relic you own, or have a bench-top power supply. If not there is already a power board designed with +5v and +3v which I have ready for the main production board. However, because the unit is just in the prototype stage this is not the primary concern. The initial development will require some hardware debugging, before we can actualize the production model.

And lastly to provide an easy starter board for students to get into embedded development with audio; without needing to switch focus away from software synthesis and focus on electronics engineering / board design.

So that is really where my rationalizing started and ends.

( Update: Board size reduced slightly.. about 1 inch per side. )


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electri-fire



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dioioib wrote:
I intended on making a development platform. As in something that can be expanded, programmed, and used as the user wishes....
Currently the board has I/O headers which could be multiplexed to increase input control. I have designed some input controllers for other projects which I could incorporate as add-on's to the system.


Cool. Be sure to make good use of the unused portions of the board. If possible have extra holes for headers, IC sockets or other additional hardware. Also some extra holes to mount smaller add-on boards on spacers might come in handy.


dioioib wrote:
I will need to program the unit for several things including Midi I/O, output to the DAC, interface for the microSD card. Much of this might be available already but with most open source software it can not be sold with the board. So I will be writing my own.


Ermm... how about selling just the board, and pre programming it with open source software "as a free service" ? I suppose you best ask your sources if that would be ok.
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dioioib



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

electri-fire wrote:

Cool. Be sure to make good use of the unused portions of the board. If possible have extra holes for headers, IC sockets or other additional hardware. Also some extra holes to mount smaller add-on boards on spacers might come in handy.


I agree. I have been considering using the portion on the lower left part of the board as a prototype area. I am glad someone has mentioned this. The next question would be is there a need for through hole or SMD or both? The upper right portion of the board has some free space as well and would make for a good prototype area. Additionally the board is a 4 layer board I could connect the pins in a matrix if desired. This would be something new but I remember a strong disliking for green wiring parts together. So the question is what are everyone's thoughts on this? What prototype setup would you like most? Euro Card, Through Hole, SMD array (which would make for 4 SMD spots for prototyping {this is the one I am interested in the most}), or other?



electri-fire wrote:

Ermm... how about selling just the board, and pre programming it with open source software "as a free service" ? I suppose you best ask your sources if that would be ok.


I would definitely be willing to load the boards with software, as a free additional service. My only concern regarding this is the limits of licensing, as I do not want to overstep the bounds of GNU, GLP, etc.

My own personal framework will probably be available as Creative Commons - Attribution, Non-commercial licensing. However, I need the boards to start testing this code-base.

As for just selling the boards I would be interested in doing that as-well. The parts count is not overly excessive, and I like the idea of anyone building their own if they are capable. The project uses SMD and as such sometimes people find it hard to work with them. although I have deliberately used part sizes no smaller than 0603, which is the smallest I can personally work with with out going completely mad using my iron.

The next step is the number of boards I am going to order. I just received a response from a board house with a reasonable pricing for 4 layer, however, I am going to wait for a few other quotes. I have been making some minor adjustments and checking the continuity of some areas ensuring a minimum of problems arise when work begins. There are bound to be a few issues that I am just not seeing at this time.

electri-fire thank you for the suggestions. Everyone has been very helpful and the input is going to help create an excellent development board.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dio, you might want to get a quote from E-TekNet. They have been making boards for me and I've been quite happy with them.

Les

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DrJustice



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Interesting board, dioioib thumleft

On DSP choice: why isn't Motorola DSP56k considered? You can get free tools for it and there's a quite a bit of code and info out there. After all it's the DSP that almost all DSP based synths and effects units have been based on traditionally.

I'm a fan of the ADSP (SHARC), but as noted the tools are expensive, that is if you want the full rights. You can install VisualDSP and get full functionality for 90 days, then the code size gets capped at something like a few tens of kilobytes of object code (can't remember if this is before or after linking...). I think the one that came with my latest SHARC eval kit allows 10k instructions.

DJ
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dioioib



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

DrJustice wrote:
Interesting board, dioioib thumleft

On DSP choice: why isn't Motorola DSP56k considered?


Actually, I have a sample of the Freescale processor on my bench right now. I have been meaning to look into it, but work it keeping me busy.

There are a great many options out there regarding DSP, there is no doubt about that. And with the suggestion of a DSP with an existing code base provides for a strong argument for the beginner. Even the idea of rapid code generation and prototyping would be fantastic.

DrJustice wrote:

I'm a fan of the ADSP (SHARC), but as noted the tools are expensive, that is if you want the full rights. You can install VisualDSP and get full functionality for 90 days, then the code size gets capped at something like a few tens of kilobytes of object code (can't remember if this is before or after linking...). I think the one that came with my latest SHARC eval kit allows 10k instructions.
--


I agree this is the processor of choice for me too, for a few reasons. There are some really interesting things planned. Of course if the board takes off I would be willing to invest in the tools and plan a dsp chip add-on board. There are some really interesting things that could supplement the existing setup. Of course some of the board will have to be redesigned to accommodate any DSP that is added.

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dioioib



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Pad Array.

So I have spent the better part of an hour adding this pad array. Once I decided on a suitable layout I needed to move some traces. Let me know what you think about this?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here is the update. The board now has pin access to all the remaining I/O through SMD pads adjacent to the pins on the chip. The new prototype grid has been expanded to both sides of the board and the over all board size has dropped by .1"

I have been talking with some board houses and on the suggestion of Inventor I will be using a company in Arizona. I am about 98% satisfied with the current layout. But there may be changes or revisions once I start working with it. If you would like to be included in the prototype board run let me know. The run will be very limited but I would like to see at least 2 other people involved in the debugging process.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

diio, I'd test your code on your board if I can fit it in my budget when you make the boards. I'm very busy with projects of my own, though, so maybe I would not be the best beta tester. I most definitely want one!

Les

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dioioib



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just an update the first run of prototype boards are being produced right now. Everything is looking good, I should have more news shortly.
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