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Correction: I'm *not* making TR-808 Voice Boards...
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How would you like the 808 voices to be arranged?
Two pcbs with six voices each.
28%
 28%  [ 15 ]
Three pcbs with four voices each.
21%
 21%  [ 11 ]
Individual pcbs with one voice each.
50%
 50%  [ 26 ]
Total Votes : 52

Author Message
Paradigm X



Joined: Feb 15, 2011
Posts: 281
Location: Null and void

PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Doug, youre a gentleman. Smile
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infindebula



Joined: Sep 29, 2011
Posts: 28
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dougster wrote:
They should be here by the end of the week.


Hey Doug, it's my birthday! Give me some good news! (Or any news)
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Dougster



Joined: Sep 20, 2005
Posts: 272
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm back from my business trip, and there's a package in the shipping and receiving department for me. I'm hoping it's the prototypes!!!

Regards,
Doug

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Spotta



Joined: Apr 24, 2010
Posts: 22
Location: London UK

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Brilliant Doug, fingers crossed it is.
I've been waiting years to build this =]

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Spotta



Joined: Apr 24, 2010
Posts: 22
Location: London UK

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Can you put us out of our misery Doug?

Was it the boards? Are they good to go?

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Spotta



Joined: Apr 24, 2010
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Doug,

Just seen about your eye surgery, (we can only actually know whats going on if you tell us!) get well soon man and rest up.
Being ill sucks, I was told I had cancer around the same time I heard I was in line for a mb808 and had half my jaw removed. Here's hoping the kits don't take too much longer to sort out once you have recovered.

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jaidee



Joined: Oct 28, 2007
Posts: 43
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, UK

PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Doug, thanks for the update on eight-oh-eight.org about your recent (presumably elective) laser eye surgery.

I don't want to be churlish, but having shared your various personal, family, and business tribulations over the last two plus years since paying my deposit, the update I'm really waiting for is to hear whether the package at the end of your most recent business trip you was the long-awaited MB808 PCBs (previously represented as the last piece of the jigsaw).

I'm pleased for you that you're impressed with the picture quality of your new mobile phone (altho' to be honest, once again, it isn't my main focus of interest when checking the 808 site). Could we therefore have the promised pics of the PCBs ... or even the kits bundled up and ready for dispatch (I'm trying to remain an optimist)...

Better still, can we have the final invoice and clear assurances about the timescale for dispatch once the balance (whatever it may be) is paid?

C'mon Doug, get your act together and get the kits out; if there are still issues/problems/whatever, at least be straight with us, tell us the score, and set out what you see as the way forward.

PS Spotta - sorry to hear about your health issues. I guess Doug isn't the only one with problems...
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Dougster



Joined: Sep 20, 2005
Posts: 272
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA

PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jaidee wrote:
Doug, thanks for the update on eight-oh-eight.org about your recent (presumably elective) laser eye surgery.

I had a vitreus separation which tore my retina. They told me I had to have the repairs done right away or it would turn into a detached retina and I would lose my sight. I could barely see through that eye, it was like looking through a cloudy marble filled with layers of spots. My vision is clearing up, but I still have lots of spots and some floaters. I have a follow up appointment with the doctor tomorrow (Wednesday) at 1:45PM.

Quote:
the update I'm really waiting for is to hear whether the package at the end of your most recent business trip you was the long-awaited MB808 PCBs

Yes, it was the PCBs from the new manufacturer. At first glance they look fine. I'll build one to make sure it's good, and then I'll order the main batch.

Quote:
Better still, can we have the final invoice and clear assurances about the timescale for dispatch once the balance (whatever it may be) is paid?

I won't take any more money until I can actually deliver. Once I get final payment, I will ship within three business days, hopefully sooner.

Quote:
C'mon Doug, get your act together and get the kits out; if there are still issues/problems/whatever, at least be straight with us, tell us the score, and set out what you see as the way forward.

So, you don't think I'm being straight with you?

Regards,
Doug

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-minus-



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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deleted !
Last edited by -minus- on Tue May 29, 2012 9:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dougster



Joined: Sep 20, 2005
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Location: Tucson, AZ, USA

PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for the post there Minus, but I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take away from it. I see that you are projecting a lot of things onto me, some valid, some maybe not. And if I understand correctly, you're not even on the list for a kit.

If I could go back to two years ago, I would, and I would do things differently. FWIW, if I knew then what I know now, I probably would not have done this project at all. The reality is, it is what it is, we're here now. Yes, I underestimated the time it would take to order all the parts and have the pcbs made. Yes, I failed to take into account the economy and the effect it would have on my business as well as the other businesses that I had lined up in the supply chain. Yes, I failed to anticipate that I would spend half my time traveling for my day job. Yes, I failed to take into account that I would have heart problems, my daughter would require $12,000 of medical procedures and that my father-in-law would die from pancreatic cancer during the time I was trying to finish this project. But, bottom line, I will see this thing through until the end.

You refer to the boutique synth market. Other than delivery times, please don't compare me to Cynthia, Peter, Randaleem, etc. I have only one project going, all other projects are on hold until this one is done. Everyone will get their kits in the order they signed up, and no more kits will be made or sold until all current commitments are fulfilled. I'm not financing any other projects, I'm not starting a video company, and I'm not hanging with any prostitutes or doing any drugs. Rolling Eyes

If you're truly "freaking out" about my project, contact me via email and I'll get you a refund of whatever I got from you. Yes, I'm slow, yes, a couple guys have waited a long time for refunds while I've been distracted by other things, but yes, if you gave me a deposit, you'll get a refund.

Regards,
Doug

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-minus-



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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

No, I am not on the list... I didn't mean to project anything, but reading back on it maybe it did come across that way. I've deleted that post and I wish you the best on getting this project finished.
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Dougster



Joined: Sep 20, 2005
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Location: Tucson, AZ, USA

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

-minus- wrote:
No, I am not on the list... I didn't mean to project anything, but reading back on it maybe it did come across that way. I've deleted that post and I wish you the best on getting this project finished.

Thanks!

I'm off to my eye doctor to see if he thinks I'm healing up properly...

Regards,
Doug

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jaidee



Joined: Oct 28, 2007
Posts: 43
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, UK

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I had a vitreus separation which tore my retina.

I accept that my presumption of elective surgery was wrong and uncalled for. I apologise for that and wish you a speedy recovery.

Quote:
So, you don't think I'm being straight with you?

I've just checked my PayPal account and have remided myself that I paid my deposit on 29th January 2010. Well over two years later, I'm still uncertain what is going to be in the final kit, when it is going to be delivered, and what it is going to cost. Straight answers to any and all of those questions would be appreciated.

For several months after ordering you gave the very distinct impression that all that was holding up delivery was an order of pots (to quote from the web site as at January 2011 "YAY!!!! The potentiometers are *finally* on their way to me!!! That means I'm going to be able to ship kits!"). I was a bit shocked subsequently to find that you did not have the PCBs...

Unlike some others I've never asked for my deposit back, basically because I still have underlying faith and trust that sometime soon you're going to deliver a great project ... but to be honest, I can readily see why some fellow subscribers have completely lost patience
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Dougster



Joined: Sep 20, 2005
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quick update: Sorry to report that I went to the eye doctor this afternoon and had to have more laser work done to fix more of my retina that was still tearing. I'm not supposed to be online, but you know how it goes, the squeaky wheel needs the grease...

jaidee wrote:
I'm still uncertain what is going to be in the final kit, when it is going to be delivered, and what it is going to cost.

You can see a list of the included parts in the assembly manual that has been posted on the site for some time. I'll go back over things when I'm more recovered from the surgery, but as I remember the only difference with batch three should be that I didn't include the 4558 op amps since the TI version is available from Mouser. There are some differences in the BoM that you order from Mouser though. I tightened up the design so there are fewer shift registers, but there are now more memory chips (two banks of patterns and one of songs instead of just the one pattern bank), along with some other minor things. The release notes are at: http://www.eight-oh-eight.org/Rev3/releasenotes.html.

I'll calculate the exact cost when I place the PCB order, but as I have said all along, the total is less than $200. Remember, this is a MIDIbox project, and I don't get to make any profit on it. That's why I haven't given you an exact figure. If I were to do it again, I'd write my own sequencer and set the price up to $250 to make a bit of money back for my time. (That's another reason why I can't wait to finish this project up and move on to something else so I can make a couple bucks for my efforts.) As for when, well, I have been amending my shipping dates for far too long now, so it's hard to give an exact answer. I can tell you that as soon as I recover from this surgery I will get back to confirming that the pcb is correct. When that is done, I will place the order for the main batch of pcbs and then send out invoices. There are a couple things that, like it or not, I have to take into account in planning. I have a family wedding to go to in June, and a two week business trip in June or July, so it may be late July before I ship.

Quote:
I was a bit shocked subsequently to find that you did not have the PCBs...

Have you ever manufactured anything? I used the same procedure as I did when I was the general manager of a machine shop. When I started this project, I looked at all of the parts that I needed and all of the distributors and lead times and made an estimate of what needed to be ordered at what time to have the smoothest production. Interestingly, the one thing I felt I had the most control over was the PCB production itself, since I had ordered other PCBs before. I've had problems in the past where a part goes obsolete or the footprint changes, so the PCB has to be changed for a different design, that's why I wait until last to have them made, after I have the other parts. There was a failure in the process though, so I had to switch board manufacturers. I didn't want to order $1600 of boards from an untested source, so I ordered a few prototypes first.

I knew things wouldn't be exactly what I planned, but I didn't realize how badly some of the parts in the chain would fail. That particular batch of potentiometers you reference never showed up. The order was marked NCNR (no cancel, no return) too, which lead to a few heated exchanges with my distributor. I do not believe in trying to revise history, so I did not remove that blog post from the web site.

OK, I'm going to go lie down. Please, don't anybody freak out before I come back...

Regards,
Doug

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infindebula



Joined: Sep 29, 2011
Posts: 28
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Doug, as a suggestion, now that you have the snazzy phone maybe you could shut some mouths by posting some pictures. It doesn't have to be high-quality assembly shots. Maybe just some pictures of your stash of parts and your prototype boards.

People can be pretty understanding about delays for personal reasons, but 2.5 years is a long time to go without seeing any actual progress (other than the computer graphics on eight-oh-eight.org)
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Spotta



Joined: Apr 24, 2010
Posts: 22
Location: London UK

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Doug
I think the thing is, well, we're all here on the DIY forum because we do Synth DIY.
We all regularly scour through BOMS, hunt down rare parts from places located all around the world to complete our projects and we all fully understand how long such things can take.
That's why we are all at out wits end - none of us can imagine how it can take you 2.5 years!

Dougster wrote:
I checked my list this morning, the other thing I'm waiting for is the replacement batch of 2SC945 transistors.

That was Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012, 2 1/2 years after you took my deposit
http://www.taydaelectronics.com/2sc945-c945-bipolar-transistors-npn-50v-0-15a.html $0.02 each, hardly rare, took me .5 seconds to find.

I've been racking my brain for months now and I can only come up with three reasons why it has taken this long:

1. You've squandered our deposit money on fixing your wife's car or getting your dog a false leg and your now having to fob us off while you're paying back all of our deposit money from your wages.
2. You just really couldn't give a damn about this project any more.
3. Both of the above.

I had only ever built a midi through box and an opto compressor in the 90's when I got on the mb808 list, I have now filled up a doepfer 9U cabinet and x0xb0x and will have probably completed my Klee by the time this kit comes!
As I don't produce ambient music, some drums would really be nice...

jaidee wrote:
PS Spotta - sorry to hear about your health issues. I guess Doug isn't the only one with problems...

Hey man, don't be sorry for me! there's much worse off out there, like my good wife who has had to go through me having a heart attack 2 weeks after our twins girls were born 3 months ago and had to cope on her own.
I only mention this to let Doug know that we all have personal problems, they're personal and don't need to be plastered all over a website for a drum machine, some drum machine progress would be nice though Wink

Dougster wrote:
I have only one project going, all other projects are on hold until this one is done.

Can someone remind me what this thread was originally about....

Dougster wrote:
so it may be late July before I ship.

Can you confirm which year please Doug? I really need to decide if I am going to hang on for this project, which has the potential to be so good, or to concentrate on getting some drum modules for my modular and a Europa...

It's now also been over a year since I offered to (for free) resurrect the old eight-oh-eight forum from your back up and also host it (for free) as we all know that once a year you forget to pay the hosting fees and we all get our mb-808's put back by yet another month while this is sorted out.
The offer still stands, we need somewhere for group buys, cases etc, build notes etc, especially if as you keep telling us - 'you are getting ready to ship'

infindebula wrote:
Maybe just some pictures of your stash of parts and your prototype boards.

Now this is basically the only way we would all know for sure that you do indeed have the parts which we have already given you money for, I cannot see any reason why you have not posted some pictures either here or on http://www.eight-oh-eight.org/ in the 20 odd days since you were asked - apart from the fact that you do not have such parts. please prove me wrong.

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Dougster



Joined: Sep 20, 2005
Posts: 272
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK guys, got back at 10:30PM last night from the trip to Colorado for the wedding that I mentioned was going to happen. There is a huge fire outside Ft Collins, and my family had to be evacuated from their ranch. They got all of the people and all the horses out, and the last we heard, the ranch house was still standing, but the rest of the property has burned. (Thousands of acres. Crying or Very sad ) If you want to help, please check out Tip Top Guest Ranch.

This morning, I went to the retina doctor. He said everything is looking good and I can go back to work, read, exercise, etc. So, now for the fun:

Spotta wrote:
That's why we are all at out wits end - none of us can imagine how it can take you 2.5 years!

It should be IOTTMCO that if the only thing that was going on in my life was the MB-808 project, it would have been done a long time ago.

Quote:
Dougster wrote:
I checked my list this morning, the other thing I'm waiting for is the replacement batch of 2SC945 transistors.

That was Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012, 2 1/2 years after you took my deposit
http://www.taydaelectronics.com/2sc945-c945-bipolar-transistors-npn-50v-0-15a.html $0.02 each, hardly rare, took me .5 seconds to find.

I didn't say I had to find them and order them, I said that I was waiting for them. They have since arrived. Before you yell "POIDH," I will take a picture of them this weekend.

Quote:
I've been racking my brain for months now and I can only come up with three reasons why it has taken this long:

1. You've squandered our deposit money on fixing your wife's car or getting your dog a false leg and your now having to fob us off while you're paying back all of our deposit money from your wages.
2. You just really couldn't give a damn about this project any more.
3. Both of the above.

I know you have already passed judgement on me, but those are not the only possibilities...

Quote:
I only mention this to let Doug know that we all have personal problems, they're personal and don't need to be plastered all over a website for a drum machine, some drum machine progress would be nice though

It's interesting, lots of people want to know what is holding things up, but when I tell them, they don't want to hear it...

Quote:
Dougster wrote:
I have only one project going, all other projects are on hold until this one is done.

Can someone remind me what this thread was originally about....

From the first message in this thread:
Quote:
As some of you know, I've been working on the MB-808 kit for the last two years. I'm almost done with the third batch of kits, and I'll be glad to ship everything and get it out of my house! Cool But what next...?

Yep, "what next," not "what before" or "what instead of".

Quote:
Dougster wrote:
so it may be late July before I ship.

Can you confirm which year please Doug?

Wowsers, sorry you're so jaded man. I'll refund your deposit this weekend.

Quote:
It's now also been over a year since I offered to (for free) resurrect the old eight-oh-eight forum from your back up and also host it (for free) as we all know that once a year you forget to pay the hosting fees and we all get our mb-808's put back by yet another month while this is sorted out.

As I said before, when the forum is set up again, it will be more appropriate to host the topic on the MIDIbox forum with all the other MIDIbox projects.

Please read this slowly and carefully: it is NOT my domain name, I don't own it. When the site dies, it is not because of anything that *I* do. I offered to take over the domain, but I never got an answer back.

OK, this is getting to be TLDR, I'm going to stop because I'm sure you don't want me to add "spent time fending off attacks" to the list of excuses I already have... Wink

Regards,
Doug

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Spotta



Joined: Apr 24, 2010
Posts: 22
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Doug

Just to make it crystal clear - At no point have I ever wanted or asked for a refund.
I just want to fulfill a lifetime ambition to own (build) an 808 before I leave this planet.
There's no 'make a wish' foundation for this dream, so I'm having to rely on you.

If you refunded the deposit of everyone who has had enough of waiting then you would have no project to continue.
Is this how it is to be from now on - mention the nearly 3 year wait and get struck off the project? That's weak.

I haven't passed judgement on you at all, but lets be honest, you're not exactly doing much to give us all faith. There's still no pictures, you were very careful in your post not to deny anything or give any extra information on the current state of play of the project.

No-one ever owns a domain name, but it's very easy to choose who hosts the actual website and my offer still stands. if there is anything else I can do at all to help the project move on then please let me know.

I will now shut up and let you get on with it as I would hate it if all the other patient people thought that you 'spending time fending off attacks' would put the project back anymore.

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Dougster



Joined: Sep 20, 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Spotta wrote:
If you refunded the deposit of everyone who has had enough of waiting then you would have no project to continue.

You seem to think you know more about my project than I do. I find that fascinating. For the half dozen refunds I have given, I have filled those slots and there are at least fifty more people clamoring for a kit, some with as much desire and intensity as you seem to have...

Quote:
Is this how it is to be from now on - mention the nearly 3 year wait and get struck off the project? That's weak.

Heehee, OK I won't refund your deposit. The way you were complaining, I thought it easiest if I offered to put you out of your misery...

Quote:
I haven't passed judgement on you at all, but lets be honest, you're not exactly doing much to give us all faith. There's still no pictures, you were very careful in your post not to deny anything or give any extra information on the current state of play of the project.

LOL, OK man, sorry my honesty hasn't been enough for you. I don't have much to add that I haven't already typed in this thread and/or on the web site...

Quote:
No-one ever owns a domain name, but it's very easy to choose who hosts the actual website and my offer still stands.

I'm not sure how to interpret this. Moogah owns and pays for the domain and the hosting. I know the password so that I can update the site, and once last year I did put in my credit card info to pay for everything, but it is still his. He did not respond to my request to take over the domain, and I did not think it would be cool to just take it. I have enough troubles with karma already...

Regards,
Doug

P.S. I just threw a few things on the table for you:

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

That's 1000 each red switches, 1000 each orange switches, 1000 each yellow switches, 1000 each white switches, 2000 each black switches. You can look those up, they're all E-Switch model 5501. (After you look up the price on those things, tell me I'm not committed to this project. Heehee, yeah, I should be committed alright, to the funny farm...) The box on the top right is filled with 2SC945 transistors. Just in front of that is the PIC chips that SmashTV programmed for me, one is out of the bag on the table. Germanium diodes in the middle with the red and yellow stripes, and just a couple trays of potentiometers on the front right. I've got 1000 each of 5k, 10k, 20k, 50k linear, 50k log, and 100k log. There are a lot more parts, but that's the best I could do in the moment. I need to head out to the day job...

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Spotta



Joined: Apr 24, 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dougster wrote:
but that's the best I could do in the moment.


That was all that was needed Doug Very Happy

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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Phew! Cool
I was thinking someone was about to pick up the red phone and dial the Kremlin! Laughing Wink

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Skrog Productions



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I want the sewing machine on the floor with the voice only pcb's , hehehe .

Hi Doug !

Not long before your eye gets a proper test on the Iron horse SGS pinning it round berms Very Happy

Dave.

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Dougster



Joined: Sep 20, 2005
Posts: 272
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Skrog Productions wrote:
I want the sewing machine on the floor with the voice only pcb's , hehehe

LOL! Funny, I bought an embroidery machine last year to make logo shirts, that's how committed I am. (WTF was I thinking???) I still have all the silkscreen and airbrush stuff too, and milfy does tie-dye, so we had been kicking a lot of ideas around for future projects...

Quote:
Not long before your eye gets a proper test on the Iron horse SGS pinning it round berms Very Happy

Yeah! I've been going through withdrawals recovering from the retina repair surgery. Riding the bike had been my way of burning off the anger when I got backorder notices!

Monday, on the way back from Colorado, we stopped by Angelfire to check out their trails, and it was torture to not be able to ride! At least we got to walk on Rocket Launcher and check out the slalom track. I'm going to try to spend a week up there next summer...

Regards,
Doug

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Once you start down the modular path, forever will it dominate your destiny!

Every DIY person should own a copy of Electronotes: http://electronotes.netfirms.com

Blue LEDs are evil.
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v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8932
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dougster wrote:

I had a vitreus separation which tore my retina. They told me I had to have the repairs done right away or it would turn into a detached retina and I would lose my sight. I could barely see through that eye, it was like looking through a cloudy marble filled with layers of spots. My vision is clearing up, but I still have lots of spots and some floaters. I have a follow up appointment with the doctor tomorrow (Wednesday) at 1:45PM.



Shit man! I hope you're getting better? The eye pix looked, well, not nice. X

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Dougster



Joined: Sep 20, 2005
Posts: 272
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
Shit man! I hope you're getting better? The eye pix looked, well, not nice. X

A lot better, thanks! I still see a bunch of spots in my right eye, but the cloudiness is almost gone. It was like looking through a cloudy marble before. Right after it happened, I went to my doctor and I could barely read the 20-50 line on the eye chart. When I was at the doctor a couple days ago (Wednesday morning), they told me the spots will continue to fade until they're gone, but the floaters will never go away...

And it was strange, my eye turned more red after the second laser surgery than it did after the first one. Weird, considering the first surgery lasted at least 20 minutes and the second one was probably less than five minutes...

Regards,
Doug

_________________
Once you start down the modular path, forever will it dominate your destiny!

Every DIY person should own a copy of Electronotes: http://electronotes.netfirms.com

Blue LEDs are evil.
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