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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
Hooray, I just bricked my G2X.
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Tim Kleinert



Joined: Mar 12, 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:28 pm    Post subject: Hooray, I just bricked my G2X. Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

My humongous new patch makes it freeze Laughing, and it's the first thing it wants to load when turned on.

Any way to stop it from doing this? A button combination on start-up?

(BTW: I know what caused it: I totally maxed out the patch module memory in all slots. This can be undone by erasing some of the commentary name-bar modules. I have a second G2X to keep on working and finish the patch. But it would be nice to get this one back to life again.)

Any ideas?

cheers,
t
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Shocked

Dunno .. there was some talk about key combinations in the past but I forgot .. was just wondering .. the OS reflash tool, does that one still work? Like downgrade the OS to loose the patches and then re-upgrade again.

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Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
there was some talk about key combinations in the past but I forgot ..

That's what I thought too, but maybe I'm just imagining it.


Blue Hell wrote:
the OS reflash tool, does that one still work?

What's that? You mean the OS update installer?

Anyhow, I submitted a query on the Nord tech support page.

And also, my assumption has proven correct. The same patch, with the patch memory not maxed out (by removing some name-bar modules), does NOT brick my second G2X. I know it seems like a risky experiment, but I was pretty sure about the cause. I was consistently experiencing weird behavior the last few days with totally memory-maxed preliminary versions of the patch -weird characters instead of numbers on some of the value displays when tweaking knobs, which sometimes made the unit freeze. Removing some of the name-bar comments made the phenomenon disappear.

Anyway, I don't blame the poor thing. This is by far the most complex and DSP-hungry (all DSPs fully maxed) algorithm I've ever thrown at it, and makes everything I've ever done before seem like child's play. I'm amazed that it works at all -which it does now. Cooking up some variations and will publish soon.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tim Kleinert wrote:
What's that? You mean the OS update installer?


That's what I meant, yes.

Quote:
And also, my assumption has proven correct.


Nope .. you'd have to brick the 2nd one too Laughing ... maybe fix the 1st one before doing so Rolling Eyes

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Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
Nope .. you'd have to brick the 2nd one too Laughing ... maybe fix the 1st one before doing so Rolling Eyes

Laughing Trust me, it works fine now. But you should have seen those weird characters in the numerical displays when tweaking. Shocked Almost cool in its own way, made the G2 look like a piece of alien technology. Finally a patch that reveals that Hans and Magnus are shape-shifting reptilians! Laughing Like we didn't know.

But I somehow have the bad hunch that fixing No.1 is not so trivial. Rolling Eyes We'll see.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Laughing

But yeah .. nasty issue .. hope it'll be fixed soon!

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Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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varice



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Hooray, I just bricked my G2X. Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tim Kleinert wrote:
My humongous new patch makes it freeze Laughing, and it's the first thing it wants to load when turned on.

Any way to stop it from doing this? A button combination on start-up?...

Some instructions for erasing the flash memory were posted by Rivelen in this topic (scroll down the page about 2/3 of the way to the bottom):

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-31827-100.html

Good luck Tim.

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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:30 am    Post subject: Re: Hooray, I just bricked my G2X. Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

varice wrote:
Some instructions for erasing the flash memory were posted by Rivelen in this topic (scroll down the page about 2/3 of the way to the bottom):

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-31827-100.html

Good luck Tim.

Funziona! cheers G2X ser.10310 reporting back for duty. Many thanks. Smile

For once I love my hunches to be proven incorrect. Laughing

Good thing is, I haven't used that unit for so long that I don't even know which patches I have now permanently lost. Laughing

cheers,
t
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

:-)
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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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varice



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:16 am    Post subject: Re: Hooray, I just bricked my G2X. Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tim Kleinert wrote:
Funziona! cheers G2X ser.10310 reporting back for duty. Many thanks. Smile...

dancing I’m glad that you got your G2X up and running again. I’m curious, were you able to erase only the patch/performance flash memory to get the G2 to boot up properly, or did you have to erase everything (requiring a reload of the G2 OS)?

Tim Kleinert wrote:
...Good thing is, I haven't used that unit for so long that I don't even know which patches I have now permanently lost. Laughing ...

Too bad that you may have lost some patches... Which is a fair warning, I have several patches and perfs stored on my two G2s that I need to save to my computer for backup…

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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:07 am    Post subject: Re: Hooray, I just bricked my G2X. Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

varice wrote:
I’m curious, were you able to erase only the patch/performance flash memory to get the G2 to boot up properly, or did you have to erase everything (requiring a reload of the G2 OS)?

I only had to erase the patch memory. The G2 always loads the last patch used after booting up, which in my case made it freeze due to totally maxing the patch module memory. The fact that the cycles load of all DSP is in the upper 90% region, and DSP memory load is 100% flat everywhere Twisted Evil probably doesn't help either. Laughing

Anyway, as described above, I erased some of the, uh, "purely decorative" Laughing name bar modules to lower the patch module count, and all is well now.

But this is definitively a bug -actually quite a serious one because of the risk of permanent data loss. In my case, I always back up stuff, so it's no biggie.

Thanks again for that link.

cheers,
t
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synthlab



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Cheers!!! A toast to Tim…

Anybody that can push the G2 to absolute ragged edge is a hero in my book. Rock on. Keep doing those wonderful patches and experiments.

Thanks, Man. Very Happy
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Electromagnetic Wave



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
all DSP is in the upper 90% region, and DSP memory load is 100% flat everywhere Twisted Evil probably doesn't help either. Laughing


I made some .prf like that and I got the same issue 2, or 3 times. But in my case its freeze when all my slot use 100% ressource memory and after I send bad MIDI data internaly when I use many MIDI functions with interslot patching .



Quote:
This can be undone by erasing some of the commentary name-bar modules.


Have you already noticed that ? Into some patchs, when you delete a name bar module, the Cycles % change. Look in the patch attached to the post. Its a patch made with the G2tools (NM1 > NM2). Watchout for the volume when you load the patch!

Before : Cycle : 32.5 %
After a name-bar module is deleted: Cycle : 34.7

Conclusion : In particular situation, I add a name module bar and I save Cycle %

???????????? Rolling Eyes


Probably you spoke about this on the forum but Ive dont know where, I have some flash about that but Im not sure...


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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Electromagnetic Wave wrote:
Before : Cycle : 32.5 %
After a name-bar module is deleted: Cycle : 34.7

Conclusion : In particular situation, I add a name module bar and I save Cycle %

Shocked ...hmmm... is there a module that saves memory% too? thinking perhaps I'll get autocorrelation and FFT happening on the G2 after all. banana

Electromagnetic Wave wrote:
Probably you spoke about this on the forum but Ive dont know where, I have some flash about that but Im not sure...
Wasn't me, this is news to me.
But when (ab-)using modules for low-level stuff, I still bump into strange little quirks, even after all these years. Mostly things that don't matter in 'normal' Laughing usage, but can seriously mess things up eg. with sample-accurate calculation circuits.
Makes one feel like an eternal beta-tester, yay. Cool Except that these things won't ever be fixed. There's no compensation either. Laughing
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Electromagnetic Wave



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

In fact I can delete any module in the patch posted before and the Cycle% give me weird result. It's not only happen with the name module bar. I remember when I noticed that (some years before) I compared the .pch code before/after without good conclusion. I remember I got the same 'issue' not only with the g2tools but with other patchs too.

Other thing I can add is that the Cycle % information for each module from a patch is not into the .pch but into the G2 OS.
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qfingers



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Electromagnetic Wave wrote:
Quote:
all DSP is in the upper 90% region, and DSP memory load is 100% flat everywhere Twisted Evil probably doesn't help either. Laughing


I made some .prf like that and I got the same issue 2, or 3 times. But in my case its freeze when all my slot use 100% ressource memory and after I send bad MIDI data internaly when I use many MIDI functions with interslot patching .



Quote:
This can be undone by erasing some of the commentary name-bar modules.


Have you already noticed that ? Into some patchs, when you delete a name bar module, the Cycles % change. Look in the patch attached to the post. Its a patch made with the G2tools (NM1 > NM2). Watchout for the volume when you load the patch!

Before : Cycle : 32.5 %
After a name-bar module is deleted: Cycle : 34.7

Conclusion : In particular situation, I add a name module bar and I save Cycle %

???????????? Rolling Eyes


Probably you spoke about this on the forum but Ive dont know where, I have some flash about that but Im not sure...


You need to be careful when changing parameters from converted patches. Some tricks were done to allow audio rate signals as inputs as non-audio rate signals and vise versa. There was a reason this was done to better match the NM1 patches within the G2 environment. I cannot recall when, but the G2 editor actually changes the signal rates based on the input connection. I kinda wish they would have allowed the user to change the rate of a module input. Aliasing effects notwithstanding, it can be a useful tool. Maybe the new editor could be modified to allow these types of changes.

q
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Electromagnetic Wave



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I cannot recall when, but the G2 editor actually changes the signal rates based on the input connection. I kinda wish they would have allowed the user to change the rate of a module input. Aliasing effects notwithstanding, it can be a useful tool. Maybe the new editor could be modified to allow these types of changes.


From the help file , Invert module :

Quote:
When an output is connected to its own input the Inverter will start to produce a squarewave signal at 12kHz if the module is yellow and a squarewave signal at 48kHz when the module is orange.


1.If I add a cable from a 2-In module to an Invert module input, the module pass from yellow to orange and the Cycles % increases by 0.6%.

2.After that, I disconnect the cable from the 2-In module to the Invert module input. But the Invert module stay orange.

3.Now, when I add/delete a new module or edit the patch the Invert module stay orange.


Is it in this kind of situations you wish they would have allowed the user to change the rate of a module input ?

Despite all this I do not understand exactly what is the trick used to edit the audio rate signals from converted patches? Probably something good to know because I already got this happened with other patchs too.

Smile
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qfingers



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Electromagnetic Wave wrote:
Quote:
I cannot recall when, but the G2 editor actually changes the signal rates based on the input connection. I kinda wish they would have allowed the user to change the rate of a module input. Aliasing effects notwithstanding, it can be a useful tool. Maybe the new editor could be modified to allow these types of changes.


From the help file , Invert module :

Quote:
When an output is connected to its own input the Inverter will start to produce a squarewave signal at 12kHz if the module is yellow and a squarewave signal at 48kHz when the module is orange.


1.If I add a cable from a 2-In module to an Invert module input, the module pass from yellow to orange and the Cycles % increases by 0.6%.

2.After that, I disconnect the cable from the 2-In module to the Invert module input. But the Invert module stay orange.

3.Now, when I add/delete a new module or edit the patch the Invert module stay orange.

But the Seq modules turn from yellow/blue to orange/red as soon as I add or delete an orange or red cable to the input Seq modules.


Is it in this kind of situations you wish they would have allowed the user to change the rate of a module input ?

Despite all this I do not understand exactly what is the trick used to edit the audio rate signals from converted patches? Probably something good to know because I already got this happened with other patchs too.

Smile


There is no trick. But g2ools can convert patches and allow module inputs to ba handled at the control rate and not the audio rate. The original modular did not allow changing the rate of the signals being processed. The editor automatically "uprates" the module input to audio rate when connected to an audio rate output. You can actually setup the module so that the input is not "uprated" therefore processing it at control rate. This cannot be done in the editor. Plus, when you modify the patch (especially adding new modules, whatever they are), it will look at all the modules inputs and "uprate" them automatically. You have no control of this from the editor. I would like to specify the whether or not the signal gets "uprated". There are 2 types of signals that can be "uprated": control and logic. Some patches from the original modular used those the control and logic rates and don't sound correct when they are "uprated". So I "tricked" the g2 into thinking the inputs should run at control rate by not flagging the input as "uprated" signal. That is why the patches decrease/increase there usage.

The g2ools converted patches adhere to the rates of the g1 so you need to be careful modifying the patch as it may change the sound. It may not but the converter cannot tell and the editor may make inadvertent changes to the patch. Just make sure you backups. If it's sounds ok after a modification, you are probably ok.

The editor should have allowed non "uprated" inputs to be adjusted to be either audio rate or control rate. This currently cannot be done.

I was just trying to explain why you saw patch cpu load differences when modifying it in the editor.

q
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dorremifasol



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tim, I thing you are pushing your G2Xs too far Laughing
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dorremifasol wrote:
Tim, I thing you are pushing your G2Xs too far Laughing

Laughing Just wait until you see the stuff Twisted Evil. Still working on it because that pesky delay line readout bug I reported long time ago was (very subtly) compromising the sound quality (from a perfectionist point of view). But I found a real way to work around that just a few minutes ago! Shocked Was close to giving up and shelving everything, but f*ck it works now! Cool
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dorremifasol



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Shocked ! Can't wait!
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Electromagnetic Wave



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
If it's sounds ok after a modification, you are probably ok.

Or is it right to say : when I delete a name bar module and the Cycle % changes as mentioned before ? But yes .. our ears are always the last judges.

Sorry to bump your topic with my question Tim Kleinert. But I thought at first that it could be one of the cause when the G2 goes crazy.

Thank you for the explanations qfingers. I now understand much better and it reduces my doubts about the source of some bugs.

Quote:
Just wait until you see the stuff ... but f*ck it works now!

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Electromagnetic Wave wrote:
Sorry to bump your topic with my question Tim Kleinert.

No need to be sorry, on the contrary, I find this stuff very interesting. I didn't know that the editor is in charge of input clocking (red/blue signals) management. Having some of the modules that the editor only provides at control-rate available at audio-rate would open up many new possibilities.
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