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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
Bringing the Vocoder to life
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Sound



Joined: Jun 06, 2006
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

decaying.sine wrote:
I have all the resistors done for the BOM Mouser order. I included an extra column that recommends buying the number of pieces specified for the project or the next available price break--depending on the one that is cheaper. As you might guess sometimes it is cheaper to buy at the next available price break than the actual amount that you need.

I am working on caps now, but I'll wait and post everything together.

Also, my BOM of materials is identical to Oscar's original BOM. However, I am not 100% done checking yet. My suspicion is that his is accurate and it also has lead spacing for caps and that is awesome!


Hello Decay, your work will be very useful.

I did my BOM directly from the PCB layout. I think it is exactly what was there because I counted it several times. The last three times were the same results. so I can say that it was triple-checked.

However it is a preliminary BOM, for example you could add all the IC sockets. I think also that beta building will show up a more definitive BOM including hardware and other little components.

Oscar.
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SolderSmoke



Joined: May 21, 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:37 am    Post subject: PCB Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just got a message from Juergen that my pcb is in the post!

(... sound of rubbing my hands...) Razz
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/mr



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:53 am    Post subject: Ghielmetti matrices+pins on French eBay Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Perhaps some of you vocoder builders should buy these three 20x20 Ghielmetti pin matrices:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400220436598
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400220442031
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400220437750

Not much cheaper than the new ones, but without the grey stripes.
http://www.ghielmetti.ch/forums.html?nav=19,48,107&Category=Matrix-Boards-50VAC/6A

On the other hand - a pin matrix is not the perfect patching interface for a vocoder. For instance, a typical and simple operation that the user is very likely to want is: channel shifting. Moving all pins one step is a boring thing to do on a big vocoder like this, and after moving them and listening to the result, you might want to try another shift step as well. Or two. Or shift back... Smile
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zthee



Joined: Feb 20, 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:22 am    Post subject: Re: Ghielmetti matrices+pins on French eBay Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

/mr wrote:
On the other hand - a pin matrix is not the perfect patching interface for a vocoder. For instance, a typical and simple operation that the user is very likely to want is: channel shifting. Moving all pins one step is a boring thing to do on a big vocoder like this, and after moving them and listening to the result, you might want to try another shift step as well. Or two. Or shift back... Smile


What interface design do you suggest?

I'm torn between making a big 4U panel with all the bells and whistles, or a 1U panel with basically only input/output.

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tomcat



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

1U input output only would be a waste for this vocoder Wink

Im thinking about a big panel or maybe a semimodular version too. Some examples how to do useful combinations would be helpful!
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zthee



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tomcat wrote:
1U input output only would be a waste for this vocoder Wink


I know, but I meant in a "less is more" kinda way Smile

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tomcat



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Take a look at the EMS3000, i think this would be an inspiration for a dezent (small Wink ) frontpanel/interface for the living vocoder
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zthee



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I was more thinking in the terms of the EMS 2000. But the 3000 gives me new ideas!

Feels like I need to do some sketches... Now if only I could get a clear grip on what the actual functions are.. Very Happy

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tomcat



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The EMS 2000 functions are too limited. I think for this project its worth to start with functions similar to EMS3000, Sennheiser,...

After soldering that many parts you dont want to wire just a few pots. You have to wire a massive amount of pots, switches and jacks to create a huge mess of cables Wink
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Some hints from my side:
Build the PCB, with only the essential things attached (transformer, power transistors on a big heatsink), a couple of potentiometers and switches, and fine tune (and debug!) it in that state. Everything that might go to a matrix, or channel pots, or channel input/output jacks can be bypassed with one simple jumper in each channel.
You can try (and debug) the vocoder in that state, and *then* decide on which uses interface you want for it.

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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zthee



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'd like to know more about the ExcMode, S_Mode and Ns_Mode. Could anyone please explain it to me?

My guess is, for example the Ns_Mode - switches the noise on or off?

I'll spend a few more hours staring at it trying to figure it out. But if anyone could give me a hint I'd really appreciate it!

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jhaible



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

zthee wrote:
I'd like to know more about the ExcMode, S_Mode and Ns_Mode. Could anyone please explain it to me?

My guess is, for example the Ns_Mode - switches the noise on or off?

I'll spend a few more hours staring at it trying to figure it out. But if anyone could give me a hint I'd really appreciate it!


There are 3 replacement signals:
The audio input signal
Noise
Rectified and HP-Filtered audio input signal ("S")
For each one, you can select a mode: Whether it's used permanently, or just when a voiced or unvoiced condition is detected in the speech input signal.

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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zthee



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks!
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zthee



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sorry, trying to understand this...

Seeing that the comparator, that controls the FET which lets through the appropriate signal, is being run on +/-5V means it should be nullified with the switch in the -10V position and on "auto" if the switch is neither +10V or -10V? I.e. the detection system turns on or off the FET. And constantly on if the switch is in the +10V position?

Or am I wrong and it's just a on/off function?

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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

zthee wrote:
Sorry, trying to understand this...

Seeing that the comparator, that controls the FET which lets through the appropriate signal, is being run on +/-5V means it should be nullified with the switch in the -10V position and on "auto" if the switch is neither +10V or -10V? I.e. the detection system turns on or off the FET. And constantly on if the switch is in the +10V position?

Or am I wrong and it's just a on/off function?


+v10 means "positive voltage number 10", not 10V. Actually, something close to 12V.

You're using on/off/on switches to control these modes.
Looking at J2601 a an example, when the switch is in mid position (no connection), the FET gate is controlled by the "voiced" signal.
With the switch connecting it to +v10, the FET is always turned on, an dwith the switch connecting it to -v10, the FET is always turned off.
So you can have the normal (voiced, external) replacemaent signal either
permanently activated, or
switched by the voiced/unvoiced detector, or
turned off.

Similar functions for the noise, and the S-Generator replacement signals.
They can be switched on permanently,
be activated by the unvoiced detector signal, or
switched off permanently.

This all works quite well the way it is.
All you need is to do some level balancing, i. e. change resitor values to get the noise (unvoiced) level down compared to the voiced level.

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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zthee



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Everything is now as clear as it possibly could every be! So thank you sir, I'll go back to sketching on my suggested front panel. And once I built the board I'll test the functions and see if they're actually useful the way I'd like to use a vocoder.
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/mr



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

zthee wrote:
/mr wrote:
On the other hand - a pin matrix is not the perfect patching interface for a vocoder. For instance, a typical and simple operation that the user is very likely to want is: channel shifting. Moving all pins one step is a boring thing to do on a big vocoder like this, and after moving them and listening to the result, you might want to try another shift step as well. Or two. Or shift back... Smile

What interface design do you suggest?

I'm not sure, there seems to be no perfect solution... but I'd definitely like a rotary switch or up/down buttons for channel shifting. Which needs some advanced matrix machinery beneath the surface, I have some sketches going... Smile

When it comes to channel potentiometers, I strongly recommend to avoid ordinary rotary pots. It's extremely unreadable and unergonomic with 20 of them in a row. Use sliders instead, even if the panel is a bit harder to make.

tomcat wrote:
zthee wrote:
I'm torn between making a big 4U panel with all the bells and whistles, or a 1U panel with basically only input/output.

1U input output only would be a waste for this vocoder Wink

I totally agree. Anything smaller than EMS3000 is out of the question. Cool
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zthee



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

/mr wrote:
When it comes to channel potentiometers, I strongly recommend to avoid ordinary rotary pots. It's extremely unreadable and unergonomic with 20 of them in a row. Use sliders instead, even if the panel is a bit harder to make.


It's just not that the panel is harder to make - Finding nice 5K audio sliders seems next to impossible!

I had always planned to use sliders. But right now I'm stuck with normal potentiometers. I'm kinda pleased with the design, not sure about the ergonomics as you say though...

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/mr



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

zthee wrote:
/mr wrote:
When it comes to channel potentiometers, I strongly recommend to avoid ordinary rotary pots. It's extremely unreadable and unergonomic with 20 of them in a row. Use sliders instead, even if the panel is a bit harder to make.


It's just not that the panel is harder to make - Finding nice 5K audio sliders seems next to impossible!

5k is kind of odd, yes. Would 10k pots give problems?
(Would the nearby 220n caps have to be changed, or something similar?)
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

/mr wrote:
zthee wrote:
/mr wrote:
When it comes to channel potentiometers, I strongly recommend to avoid ordinary rotary pots. It's extremely unreadable and unergonomic with 20 of them in a row. Use sliders instead, even if the panel is a bit harder to make.


It's just not that the panel is harder to make - Finding nice 5K audio sliders seems next to impossible!

5k is kind of odd, yes. Would 10k pots give problems?
(Would the nearby 220n caps have to be changed, or something similar?)


It would be a compromise. - What about using a stereo 10k slider and connecting both sections in parallel?

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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tomcat



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You can find 5k audio sliders from Alpha, do a search on mouser.

Generally the options with audio taper are limited, would like to use one of the nice led equiped sliders but ... no audio taper in 5 or 10k. Sad
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/mr



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:57 am    Post subject:  1% filter caps anyone?
Subject description: one more person needed for group buy!
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Hi!

Is anybody interested in getting the 1% filter caps for this project? (144+144 pieces) Idea
I'll be ordering caps for 6 persons, likely from RS, and if I find a 7th person (here in Europe) we're reaching beyond 1000 pieces, at a lower price!

I don't know the final price yet, but if you'd just like to get the caps at a decent price without spending your time on searching among the alternatives yourself, please PM me - and you can focus on building your vocoder instead of sourcing the most hopeless components. Smile
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tomcat



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Possibly me. Maybe you can post the rs-numbers? Have to check if its cheaper for me to buy with the group or to buy direct as company (no tax,...).
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zthee



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

/mr wrote:
5k is kind of odd, yes.


Just found that Penny+Giles makes 5K audio sliders. Expensive. But nice.

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decaying.sine



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm getting a little closer. I have about 1500 parts soldered now. Just did the fancy caps! I have to order some resistors and some of the more common variety of caps.

I may be talking non-sense here, but I thought I'd bring up this idea for feedback. If someone already mentioned it, I apologize for my oversight.

If we can establish reasonable starting values for the resistors that need optimized, would it be possible to select a potentiometer with a value of say, 25% higher in resistance (I selected that arbitrarily) and then put a jumper between the wiper and CCW pin on the pot and then solder CW and CCW in the circuit? Wouldn't this give you a nice ability to use a rotary pot to quickly move through different resistance values while the circuit was in use (e.g., panning from 100k to 0 resistance with the pot)?

Again, this could be non-sense, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
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