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LektroiD
Joined: Aug 23, 2008
Posts: 1019
Location: Scottish Borders
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 Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:26 pm Post subject:
Korg Delta (DL-50) problems
Subject description: Strings work, synth is dead |
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Hi again folks!
I've got a problem with my Korg Delta. Basically the Strings section is working fine, but the synth part is dead. There is voltage going into the synth board, but the sound I hear is a small click when I press a key on the keyboard (like a trigger out signal) other than that, I get nothing except the occasional pop & crackle whilst holding a key down.
If I hold my finger on the metal top of one of the electroylitic capacitors whilst touching the metal switch assembly next to it, I get a squarewave sound. I can adjust 16', 8', 4', 2', and the noise generator and they all seem to do their job, but the filter and ADSR don't appear to do anything. So it seems the oscillator is doing its job, and the point where I'm causing a resistance with my finger hasn't yet reached the ADSR or VCF, but at least I know a signal is present. This would indicate the mixer section is also working, so the problem must lie somewhere on the synth board, but I haven't got a clue where 
Any help would be most welcome! |
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andrewF
Joined: Dec 29, 2006
Posts: 1176
Location: australia
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| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:38 pm Post subject:
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Well at least it isn't the TOG chips dead, then it gets hard and $$$
Could you describe a little of the synth's personal history?
has it been in storage many years and now doesn't worked/dropped/had a beer bath?
Was it working when you got it?
Do you have an oscilloscope?
Check the chips are all getting power?
Check the soldering on the board, anything cracked or somehow dodgy, give a quick remelt with your iron and a touch of solder.
then, maybe a good place to start is the relevant adjustment procedures starting from page 19 in the service manual. See if you are getting the voltages or signals described in the manual.
probably you already know all of these steps, but it is hard to say much more unless you can describe the steps you have taken so far and what is happening/not happening.
My first thought when you described touching it with your finger was 'grounding problem', so maybe check on the PCB that all points that should be going to ground, do go to ground.
If you want to rip up a delta and modularise it, I have no problem....that's what i did to mine  |
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LektroiD
Joined: Aug 23, 2008
Posts: 1019
Location: Scottish Borders
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| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:51 pm Post subject:
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| andrewF wrote: | | Well at least it isn't the TOG chips dead, then it gets hard and $$$ |
I'm assuming these are the chips located on the board 238-A (page 9 of the service manual)?
| Quote: | Could you describe a little of the synth's personal history?
has it been in storage many years and now doesn't worked/dropped/had a beer bath?
Was it working when you got it? |
From what I gather, it seems it's been passed around from person to person, but nobody had the time/knowledge to spend on getting it running, and just settled for the string section only. There are no signs of water damage, nor beer baths. Cosmetically it doesn't appear to have been dropped either.
| Quote: | | Do you have an oscilloscope? |
Yes, but can't find the test leads 
| Quote: | | Check the chips are all getting power? |
I'm guessing earth + pin 1 to determine that? I need to be extra careful here, I recently popped a chip on my RX15 drum machine by shorting two pins, whilst in the middle of a circuit bend.
| Quote: | | Check the soldering on the board, anything cracked or somehow dodgy, give a quick remelt with your iron and a touch of solder. |
I've got a jewellers magnifying eyepiece, I'll scan for dry solder joints & hairline cracks now.
| Quote: | | then, maybe a good place to start is the relevant adjustment procedures starting from page 19 in the service manual. See if you are getting the voltages or signals described in the manual. |
I'll have to use a multitester for now until my scope leads reappear.
| Quote: | | probably you already know all of these steps, but it is hard to say much more unless you can describe the steps you have taken so far and what is happening/not happening. |
Not really, most of the repairs I've done have been luck/obvious burnt out components. I'll run through the above steps and report back.
| Quote: | | My first thought when you described touching it with your finger was 'grounding problem', so maybe check on the PCB that all points that should be going to ground, do go to ground. |
Interestingly, I can pick up what sounds like short wave radio if I just touch the top of the electroylitic cap (without touching the switch housing)! Although, I think that's too early in the circuit to be the fault, it's not even going through the VCF or ADSR at that point (unless one of those is the problem)?!
| Quote: | | If you want to rip up a delta and modularise it, I have no problem....that's what i did to mine |
Now we're talking!!! I've been wanting to do this for a while, I have a pile of temperamental analogue beasts which I would love to pull apart and rebuild one big modular. But each time I've mentioned it, I can virtually see the hairs standing up on the back of some of the forum readers necks whilst telling me how rare they are!  Those synths are the Korg 900PS & Crumar Stratus, and now this Delta! 
I'd be interested to see how you did yours, any info/pics/forum posts or youtubes on it? |
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LektroiD
Joined: Aug 23, 2008
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Location: Scottish Borders
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| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:29 pm Post subject:
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Addendum:
| andrewF wrote: | | maybe a good place to start is the relevant adjustment procedures starting from page 19 in the service manual. See if you are getting the voltages or signals described in the manual. |
The checks are mentioned, but it doesn't say which test points to be using. The closest it gets is the following paragraph found on page 18:
"Please refer to the Owner's Manual for check points not covered by the adjustment procedure described here"
Yet in the Owner's manual, no such data can be found.
PS the solder joints / tracking looks fine.
the two points I put my fingers on to make a sound is the top of C12 & Switch 3 housing (earth). However, as stated before, this doesn't go through the ADSR, or the VCF. |
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andrewF
Joined: Dec 29, 2006
Posts: 1176
Location: australia
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| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:51 pm Post subject:
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| Quote: |
I'm assuming these are the chips located on the board 238-A (page 9 of the service manual)? |
On page 6, stay away from them! 
| Quote: | Check the chips are all getting power?
I'm guessing earth + pin 1 to determine that? I need to be extra careful here, I recently popped a chip on my RX15 drum machine by shorting two pins, whilst in the middle of a circuit bend. |
No, you will need to look up the power pins for each chip. Assuming it is the filter section, look at the board that matches page 7 of the service manual. Connect the 0V line of your multimeter to ground, use the other to check the power pins (+V and -V)
Also it may be that some intrepid experimenter tried adjusting the trimpots on the filter PCB and set them at a point where no sound can be heard. There is a webpage somewhere describing how to get the Delta filter to scream by messing with the trimpots, no doubt many owners were inspired  (i was)
| Quote: | | Not really, most of the repairs I've done have been luck/obvious burnt out components. I'll run through the above steps and report back. |
It may be better not to test things by touching them with your fingers, if you are not sure what you are doing, it can be easy to touch a 'hot' component and completely f**k yourself. The old synths aren't as well insulated or labelled as devices are these days.
| Quote: |
Now we're talking!!! I've been wanting to do this for a while, I have a pile of temperamental analogue beasts which I would love to pull apart and rebuild one big modular. But each time I've mentioned it, I can virtually see the hairs standing up on the back of some of the forum readers necks whilst telling me how rare they are! Those synths are the Korg 900PS & Crumar Stratus, and now this Delta!
I'd be interested to see how you did yours, any info/pics/forum posts or youtubes on it? |
its all in a cardboard box in the shed as a mess of boards and wires now. never really got any more than the filter going and it wasn't so exciting.
I only pulled it apart as i was moving from Japan to Australia, didn't want to bring it (already had over 500kg of 'luggage') and nobody would offer me more than $5 for it (I paid $20 with a guitar amp thrown in).
Really it is less trouble to buy a pcb and build a new module as it is to modularise a vintage analogue and get it working. Or even easier sell your old fossils to someone who lusts after such stuff and use the money to buy a bunch of modules you do want (that will be new, reliable and probably way better).
You will end up with a better synth, more time to play it, some sweets money and someone will have a big old 70s synth they can play whilst wearing the mandatory cape |
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LektroiD
Joined: Aug 23, 2008
Posts: 1019
Location: Scottish Borders
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:05 am Post subject:
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| AndrewF wrote: | | Quote: | | I'm assuming these are the chips located on the board 238-A (page 9 of the service manual)? |
On page 6, stay away from them! |
I was referring to Page 9 of the paper manual (I printed it and the numbers don't correspond to the PDF). It looks like we're talking about the same chips though
| Quote: | | Quote: | Check the chips are all getting power?
I'm guessing earth + pin 1 to determine that? I need to be extra careful here, I recently popped a chip on my RX15 drum machine by shorting two pins, whilst in the middle of a circuit bend. |
No, you will need to look up the power pins for each chip. Assuming it is the filter section, look at the board that matches page 7 of the service manual. Connect the 0V line of your multimeter to ground, use the other to check the power pins (+V and -V) |
It appears that the only pins on the 6551 chips (IC 2,3,6,7,8,9) that are marked with a (+) on the schematic are pins 4 & 6, yet NONE of these have power on any of the chips, on either pin 4 or 6! Only the pins at either end of those chips have voltage (+15V) ...they can't ALL be blown, surely? Then again, the (+) pins of these chips all seem to terminate at the chassis?! 
| Quote: | | Also it may be that some intrepid experimenter tried adjusting the trimpots on the filter PCB and set them at a point where no sound can be heard. There is a webpage somewhere describing how to get the Delta filter to scream by messing with the trimpots, no doubt many owners were inspired (i was) |
I have tried with the filter open, closed, the trimpots moved to various positions (there are only 3 on that board), no change, just that click when I hit the key, if the filter was shutting the sound off, it would change from a click to a hi q when the resonance was turned up, but no change, whatever the settings.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Not really, most of the repairs I've done have been luck/obvious burnt out components. I'll run through the above steps and report back. |
It may be better not to test things by touching them with your fingers, if you are not sure what you are doing, it can be easy to touch a 'hot' component and completely f**k yourself. The old synths aren't as well insulated or labelled as devices are these days. |
I figured provided I steer clear of the transformer, I'm only dealing with 15V, which is all that's being fed into the circuitry.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | I'd be interested to see how you did yours, any info/pics/forum posts or youtubes on it? |
its all in a cardboard box in the shed as a mess of boards and wires now. never really got any more than the filter going and it wasn't so exciting.
I only pulled it apart as i was moving from Japan to Australia, didn't want to bring it (already had over 500kg of 'luggage') and nobody would offer me more than $5 for it (I paid $20 with a guitar amp thrown in). |
I know someone who would give you more than $5 for that board!!! 
Thanks for your help so far, I refuse to let this thing defeat me, I intend to get it running |
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andrewF
Joined: Dec 29, 2006
Posts: 1176
Location: australia
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:50 am Post subject:
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| Brainstormer wrote: |
It appears that the only pins on the 6551 chips (IC 2,3,6,7,8,9) that are marked with a (+) on the schematic are pins 4 & 6, yet NONE of these have power on any of the chips, on either pin 4 or 6! Only the pins at either end of those chips have voltage (+15V) ...they can't ALL be blown, surely? Then again, the (+) pins of these chips all seem to terminate at the chassis?!
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you can find a datasheet here - http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf-download/Datasheet-023/DSA00397181.html
scroll down and click the pdf mark on the left.
the + indicates non-inverting inputs. power pins for this chip are 1 and 9.
ground or -V is pin 5.
can be confusing, there is a lot of variation in schematic symbols.
the datasheet archive should have pdfs for the other chips on the board.
good luck  |
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LektroiD
Joined: Aug 23, 2008
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Location: Scottish Borders
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:55 am Post subject:
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Other than the 6551, I could only find the datasheet for the TL072. These all appear to be fine voltage-wise. What concerns me a bit more is the following statement I found on another site:
| Quote: | | The second issue is this: quite often over the last 20 years I have found some diabolical faults in some machines that sometimes took days to trace because of their obscurity, where a failure was caused by something really unusual, the latest being in the synth section of the Korg Delta, where the synth section sputters and cuts out when the machine warms up. You simply would not believe the cause of this one, it is a doozy. I had 3 of them in all with the same issue last month. Once I spent many, many hours on the first one, the others were simple. |
found here:
http://www.prodigy-pro.com/forum/post-347730.html&sid=2e0365ecae715737beaa87894ca4ec99#347730
Seems this is a common problem with these synths. I doubt this guy will reveal his secrets either, as this is his trade. But it concerns me that the problem is likely to be more obscure, and less obvious, it may not even be the synth board which I need to be looking at.
What I have found though, at one of the wires that joins the output of the synth to the mixer block, there is a -15V output, which turns into a +15V output when I press a key... Is this normal? If not, it would certainly explain why I get a click each time I press & release a note on the keyboard. |
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RF
Joined: Mar 23, 2007
Posts: 1502
Location: Northern Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:33 pm Post subject:
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| Brainstormer wrote: | | diabolical faults in some machines that sometimes took days to trace because of their obscurity |
Brainstormer - I troubleshoot a LOT in my work. I wouldn't worry about 'diabolical faults'. It may take a while to troubleshoot if you are new to this machine, but it's not out to get you.
Stuff usually fails because of one component or issue. 'Course that component MAY do bad stuff to other components, but more often not.
Personally I am much happier to troubleshoot a dead item, or something like you have with a section clearly not working than an intermintent fault.
Hone your signal tracing skills and enjoy the process.
Success on something like this releases endorphins 
Have fun
bruce |
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Synthtech
Joined: Nov 23, 2007
Posts: 32
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:08 am Post subject:
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It is a waste of time troubleshooting this machine with a multimeter, you need to get your CRO going or at least build a capacitively de-coupled audio probe. Have a look on the switch poles of the LP / BP switch to determine if there is audio at the input to the VCF. If it is there but not on the VCF output then the issue is clearly inside the filter. Even a CRO won't tell you much of what is going on around the filter chips. If it is the same problem that I have repaired in other Delta's it IS indeed diabolical, because the problem is with passive components, and if you remove them and test them they will look fine on your test gear.
It is quite possible that you have a failed IC in there also, all the chips in the Delta's synth board are easy to get however. The boards are difficult to work on because as usual Korg makes them difficult to get to and to power up when removed, the panel boards are all soldered together, I sometimes wonder if Korg ever heard of plugs and sockets.
Normally I don't give away information on such repairs except to other service techs, but here it is: there are 4 capacitors in the filter circuit that from memory are .001 microFarad ceramics, I don't have a machine here to look at but I think they were on either side of each of the VCF chips. (C21,22,23 and 24 I think, I am going from memory here though). Replace those, and see what happens.
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Steve.
www.synthrepairs.com |
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Synthtech
Joined: Nov 23, 2007
Posts: 32
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:00 am Post subject:
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BTW, when you pull the centre panel board to work on it, when you finally re-assemble it just check the solder joints on the wires that run to the PCB's on either side, they are easy to break.
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Steve.
www.synthrepairs.com |
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LektroiD
Joined: Aug 23, 2008
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Location: Scottish Borders
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:12 am Post subject:
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| Synthtech wrote: | | Normally I don't give away information on such repairs except to other service techs, but here it is: there are 4 capacitors in the filter circuit that from memory are .001 microFarad ceramics, I don't have a machine here to look at but I think they were on either side of each of the VCF chips. (C21,22,23 and 24 I think, I am going from memory here though). Replace those, and see what happens. |
I see four capacitors around the VCF chips, which look like tantalums but without the polarity markings. These were folded over for some reason, and have what appears to be 1026H printed on, rather than the standard µF value. Do these look familiar? |
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Synthtech
Joined: Nov 23, 2007
Posts: 32
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:16 am Post subject:
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They're the ones. Worth trying replacing them before you try anything else, shouldn't cost you more than 50P.
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Steve.
www.synthrepairs.com |
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LektroiD
Joined: Aug 23, 2008
Posts: 1019
Location: Scottish Borders
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:47 am Post subject:
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replaced the capacitors with these (which are physically much smaller):
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=297
The synth section is slightly louder now, but hasn't solved the problem, it only plays when the filter is in Bandpass mode, and I still hear those clicks when the keyboard is pressed/released. the ADSR appears to work. no resonance whatsoever, and the cutoff appears to fade the sound down. I would imagine those chips are the next thing to look at, as it's definitely a fault in the filter area. |
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Synthtech
Joined: Nov 23, 2007
Posts: 32
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:12 pm Post subject:
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What are you hearing now when you say that the synth section is now louder? Didn't you say that it was dead except for a click? What are you hearing from it now?
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Steve.
www.synthrepairs.com |
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LektroiD
Joined: Aug 23, 2008
Posts: 1019
Location: Scottish Borders
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:49 pm Post subject:
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| Synthtech wrote: | | What are you hearing now when you say that the synth section is now louder? Didn't you say that it was dead except for a click? What are you hearing from it now? |
I was getting random pops, clicks and farts when I played the keys before, the replacement capacitors seem to have cured this (I have Not yet folded them over like the original design as I couldn't imagine this would have an effect on their operation), now I can hear the sound of the oscillator & noise generator. This is not as loud as expected, and only heard when the filter switch is in bandpass mode. The click happens in both filter modes, unless I switch on the envelope and increase the attack/release.
All of the controls appear to work (2', 4', 8', 16', Noise, ADSR) except the filter controls. The cutoff seems to roll the sound off as it is increased, I can hear a slight bandpass filtering as the sound disappears, but non-resonant - the resonance control does absolutely nothing.
-
I'll grab a BNC connector later today, and build a makeshift probe for my scope. I think I may need it! |
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Synthtech
Joined: Nov 23, 2007
Posts: 32
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:09 pm Post subject:
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The popping and clicks are the symptom that comes from the bad caps, but it seems you have another problem in there as well. Most likely a bad chip, you might as well replace the 2 filter chips, and if that doesn't help then swap the inline chip from the VCF to another section of the board.
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Steve.
www.synthrepairs.com |
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LektroiD
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delta32
Joined: Nov 03, 2008
Posts: 6
Location: Oxford, UK
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:07 am Post subject:
LM13600 substitute |
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Hi,
I was going through this entire story because I also have a Korg Delta with a dead synth section. However, I kind of have a clue why. A suggestion for adjusting the filters resonance setting so that it will actually self-oscillate can be found on the web. I (over-)did this adjustment and it made the filter into a wild beast .... for a minute or so. Turned out to be its last breath. All this happened about 6 years ago though.
I am wondering if you might be having the same problem ot whether the symptoms you describe appeared spontaneously.
Anyway, I also want to fix my unit. I figured too that the lm13600 are burned out due to too much feedback. A good replacement is the lm13700 (lm13600 follow-up) that can be found just about everywhere for much less money than the 'cheap equivalent' you suggested. Another option would be the NE5517 but this one is no longer being produced.
Did you manage to repair your unit in the mean time? I would be happy to hear before I start working on mine. |
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Michael Cole
Joined: Aug 20, 2010
Posts: 2
Location: London
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:13 am Post subject:
 Korg Delta Problems
Subject description: String section OK, but Synth Section doesn't work |
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Hi All
I've just read this discussion with great interest.
I have a Korg Delta that I bought new in 1981 or thereabouts.
I used it infrequently for a couple of years, and then put in back in the original box when I got married, and it stayed there for more than 25 years.
My wife is trying to get me to clear out all my old stuff, so I got the Delta out the box yesterday. Cosmetically it was still in very good condition.
The String section worked beautifully, but, to my surprise, the Synth section didn't. I played around with it a bit, trying different settings, and got it going for a few minutes, but then it stopped working, except for pops and explosions when I push down a key. (The String section is still OK.)
I don't have the technical knowledge to fix it myself, and don't want to spend a lot of money getting it repaired professionally.
I need to sell the Delta, and would like to offer it for sale in good working order.
Does anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks. |
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delta32
Joined: Nov 03, 2008
Posts: 6
Location: Oxford, UK
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:55 am Post subject:
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I eventually replaced the 4 caps, as described by Syntech a few posts up, as well as both LM13600, which i replaced with LM13700. This cured the problems with my Delta and might just do the same for yours too.
Another issue arose afterwards. The oscillator pitch would be jerking all over the place. However, after the unit had been switched on, but not used, for longer times this problem solved itself. I suspect some other caps inside needed to 'rejuvenate'. You might encounter the same problem since your Delta wasn't switched on for so long. I reckon it might even be part of the problem.
good luck |
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Michael Cole
Joined: Aug 20, 2010
Posts: 2
Location: London
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:41 pm Post subject:
Korg Delta
Subject description: Synth Section Doesn't Work |
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Many thanks for your help.
I'll let you know how I get on. |
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abstraktor
Joined: Apr 27, 2009
Posts: 190
Location: glasgow, scotland
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:46 pm Post subject:
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I checked out a Delta today and decided to buy it, but managed to get about 20% off because of a problem with the synth section, Clicks and pops as described above , but virtually no sound when in LP mode, but sound with BP on. Sounds like it could be these capacitors, and maybe the filter chip itself.
I'm hesitating to have a go at repair myself, so will probably get a tech to repair it and log the faults and fixes. Any helpful info i can get of course I'll add to this thread. Lovely strings through a small stone phaser though! |
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abstraktor
Joined: Apr 27, 2009
Posts: 190
Location: glasgow, scotland
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:23 pm Post subject:
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Update: The Korg Delta is now up an running 100% , although I havent had time to collect it from the tech.
the AN6551 IC and 13600 (IC 10 on the service schematic) both needed replaced, as did the 0.001uF VCF tuning capacitors and a few other caps replaced as they would probably go when the new chips were in place. Difficult to get the same miniature caps, so larger ones were used on breakout wires -not ideal, but the only solution.
Hope this helps this thread. |
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petisomorja
Joined: Aug 19, 2011
Posts: 1
Location: Hungary
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:41 am Post subject:
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Hi!
(Sorry for my english)
I have this korg delta DL-50, I ve got a problem, when I activate the Strings section, after 10 minutes I hear strange noise, then stops working . In synth mode everything works fine.
There is a board named Strings.mix KLM-237-A. I think the problem is with IC 4556D JRC 1059. This is has black pins, and there is a little humpy capacitor (see the picture)
The problem is not in the amplifier (Fender)
I hope is possible to repair my Korg.
Peter
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