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Don't mess with scientists

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blue hell
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Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject:

Was reading up on economics when I stumbled over a series of five articles in "Spiegel online" (in English) that might be interesting within the context of this discussion. The end of Arrogance, America loses it's dominant economic role. here BTW is Bush on dope again? he looks like shit lately. edit : fixed a mispeling _________________ Jan also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit. Last edited by blue hell on Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject:

Thanks for that link, Jan. Ouch. I ran across this quote recently.... “Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage. “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years. “ -variously attributed to Alexander Tytler and Alexis de Tocqueville

EdisonRex
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Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject:

Disraeli said that. It had to do with the last great civilization. I'm kind of a Darwinist on this, and I think he did not factor technology into the equation. I think technology is a great modulator. _________________ Garret: It's so retro. EGM: What does retro mean to you? Parker: Like, old and outdated. Home,My Studio,and another view

Uncle Krunkus
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Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:49 pm Post subject:

RF wrote:

Oh - and guys,

I'm thoroughly enjoying this discussion of ideas. Thanks

bruce

I just wanted to say that between that "Who here votes" thread I started and this one, I've learned more about the US political system, and politics in general, and how people react to it all, than I had in the last 20 years! Thanks guys.

For example, until a week ago, I would have said that it only makes sense to vote for the party, as any individual will promise anything they like and do the opposite when they get into power unless they have the combined control of the party hovering over them.
Now this may be more relevant in Australia, as we have a very different system, but I realise now that it's not as simple as that, and I also feel that I understand why.

I also agree with EdisonRex about technology. The fact that interested individuals can now get on a forum and discuss these ideas from opposite sides of the world means that politics won't ever be quite the same again. Even the power of mass media (which in some ways seems to be still growing) can be bypassed as far as the dissemination of knowledge, and ideas goes. People can now be directly influenced by their peers in a way that just wasn't possible 30 years ago. This is a good thing IMHO. It could even bring about a major shift in the way human beings exist. Or not.

Either way, thanks again for the opinions, experience, ideas, observations and good humour.
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blue hell
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Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject:

RF wrote:

Ouch.

It was not meant to hurt you or anyone else, but there are some upcoming nations and things will change, if not now it will happen later. Funny thing was that Reagan was mentioned in about the same way that jksuperstar did a couple of posts ago. Also there is a real outflow of knowledge together with production from the US to the east, the same holds for Europe of course, and it seems likely to me that power will follow. Anyway, if you have kids be sure they learn Chinese.
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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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bachus

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Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject:

Blue Hell wrote:

Was reading up on economics when I stumbled over ...

Good pieces but I feel they focus too much on the past eight years--certainly in terms of economics. The bush administration is just the logical conclusion of the movement that began (politically) with Regan's call to get government off our backs--to trust that the least regulation was the best regulation. It should be clear if you look at all the details of the current crisis that is simply not the case. I despair to say that I expect the empty headed-majority that happily swallowed that nostrum will probably now jump to the other extreme and we will turn too far towards socialism. Dogmas that offer "pure" solutions are ever so much more attractive to people than admitting that we are a flawed species that at its best muddles through on webs of compromise that hold our extremes in check.

Obamba is too moderate for my taste which probably means he's in about the right place LOL
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Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:05 pm Post subject:

RF wrote:

And to think I have been accused of being cynical of the government in the past - after reading your post AI, I feel like a cheerleader for political parties.

I'm not the least bit cynical. Skeptical, always, but cynicism leads to the death of the imagination. Neil Young may have thought it better to burn out than to rust, but I'd rather drop out for a while than do either.

I was a political science / pre-law major in 1972 planning a career as a civil liberties lawyer. Then I spent a month in D.C. studying lobbyists. That did the trick. Most exciting thing, by the way, was dodging a beheading on a 2-lane road in Maryland on the way home. My friend and co-student, who had just got home from his tour in Vietnam a few months before, was driving his Corvette convertible about 95 miles per hour, and we got to this narrow bridge at the same time as a tractor-trailer coming the other way. We could see and feel the Vette getting sucked under the truck -- we had the top down -- and as soon as he saw it coming, he punched the gas pedal and we shot out of there like a rocket. I never imagined accelerating like that out of 95 MPH. Being in a war and coming home can be a little tough. We survived, and he slowed down.

The lobbyists killed any interest I may have had in poli-sci, although I think I might have made a decent trial lawyer. But I came to the conclusion that politics are the outcome of a functional deficiency in the human brain. Not a structural one, not one requiring evolution for an escape, but a tough local minimum to get out of, nevertheless. I've voted in every major election and many of the minor ones since then, but I must say, this stuff doesn't touch me anywhere near my core.

I almost got run down by a motorcycle cop on a bridge in Austin TX the weekend before the Iraq invasion, but that's a different story. Not bad for an old man!

RF wrote:

I don't want a scientist (or an economist) for president.
bruce

I'd love to have a physicist, someone who understands energy and entropy and information theory at a fundamental level.

I remember before Bell Labs was drawn and quartered, that it was possible to be creative because it was an open system in the physical sense, a disentropic system. One could explore the space and find pockets of technical / economic energy, and then structure them into extensible systems that paid for themselves *and* were fun to work with.

But the MBAs were leeching in. I remember in the old days when I was an electronics tech in Western Electric (also part of AT&T), some people would gripe because the engineers got promoted to management slots, and of course engineers weren't "people people." Well, maybe not, but they understood the technology and the products, and "the people" liked having stable jobs. But, over time the MBAs and the bean counters leeched into control, and that was that. These classes of misjudgment in the financial industry are the latest manifestation. I'm guessing that the economists lost to the MBAs there, just like the engineers and scientists lost out to the MBAs in what used to be one of the most technologically innovative companies on the planet.

These problems are a symptom of a way of thinking.

There is a way out of this mess that has little to do with competition with the Chinese or whomever, but it requires imagination and creativity, and, fundamentally, non-linear thinking. I think the U.S. used to have an edge there, partly because all these cultures got thrown together here and had to figure out how at least not to be killing each other on a daily basis, and we got all kinds of byproducts out of this cultural fusion, economics and music not being the least of them. And that influx is still going on here, so I think there is hope. Narrow, single-perspective, unchallenged thinking is a dangerous habit. We've seen 8 years of it in this U.S. presidential administration. That has been a closed system, an entropic system in the physical sense, and we are seeing a little lab experiment showing where concentrated entropy leads.

There is no fundamental reason that we can't go non-linear and have another interesting run. From the outside these economics don't mean sh*t any more. We're mostly just sending each other numbers over the wire. We pretend that buying crap that falls apart in a couple years is tangible in some sense. It's all a social construct. Social constructs can be morphed, but it takes a hell of an imagination and concentration of will to do it.

Assholes can be leaders. Evangelists can lead the pack right over the cliff, singing as they go. What was it Bob Dylan sang? "Don't follow leaders." I'll take a good engineer-physicist-at-heart any day for figuring out how to constructively redirect an energy flow. I am sure as hell tired of these f*ing amateurs.
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BobTheDog

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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:31 am Post subject:

does he believe in evolution?

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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:40 am Post subject:

BobTheDog wrote:

does he believe in evolution?

Both McCain and Obama have said they do, BobTheDog.

bruce

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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:10 am Post subject:

Well thats a start anyway.

DrJustice

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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:15 am Post subject:

Acoustic Interloper wrote:

Assholes can be leaders. Evangelists can lead the pack right over the cliff, singing as they go. What was it Bob Dylan sang? "Don't follow leaders." I'll take a good engineer-physicist-at-heart any day for figuring out how to constructively redirect an energy flow. I am sure as hell tired of these f*ing amateurs.

You're not the only one then. I entertain this fantasy about scientifically, or at least professionally based "government". Staffed by people who takes cause and effect into consideration, and who has a genuine interest in the cases at hand rather than career and party agendas.

I say professional, thinking of the buffoons and charlatans getting to take turns to manage any department of the state (oil/energy, transportation, education, culture etc.) as a perk for N years of loyal service to their party (Norwegian model). I have a cousin that works in the oil and energy department - complex stuff to manage. He was describing the string of clowns that come on board to head them in no uncertain terms...

DJ
--

Uncle Krunkus
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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject:

DrJustice wrote:

Yeah, I'll third that.
And I'd like to see them (somehow) actually be held accountable for the things they do too. Any other organisation has to show projected outcomes, actual outcomes, efficacy, environmental impact studies, etc. etc.
And if they don't actually do the job they promise too?....... No pension! Laughing

Maybe bank managers could come under the same scheme? Shocked

Just a little incentive to help them with the big decisions. Very Happy

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Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject:

RF wrote:

Convince me another party is the better choice with something other than anger about the current administration and the past 8 years..

Living here in the "battleground state" of Pennsylvania, and therefore being inundated with sinister sounding automated calls -- so-called robo calls -- from the McCain campaign, and even worse mailers, I have to say that my current impression is that this bunch is even worse than the last. I'd be afraid of winding up in Guantanamo Bay myself if this crowd comes into power.

One funny aspect of it, though, is that we got phone calls about both of our kids from the McCain campaign -- both kids temporarily live out of state -- to make sure that they have mailed their absentee ballots. Presumably we got the calls because the kids registered themselves as independents. I hate to disappoint old John, but I've got a stinking feeling that there's no check mark next to his name on the ballots they just mailed in.

Pennsylvanians had enough good sense to kick that reactionary Rick Santorum out of the U.S. Senate 2 years ago. I am pretty hopeful that a good measure of that good sense remains.
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Scott Stites
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Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:05 pm Post subject:

Quote:

That's one of the pitiably few advantages of living in a red state - they don't even bother.......
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Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:33 am Post subject:

Acoustic Interloper wrote:

.....Pennsylvanians had enough good sense to kick that reactionary Rick Santorum out of the U.S. Senate 2 years ago. I am pretty hopeful that a good measure of that good sense remains.

Good sense. I hope so. Will John Murtha get a 19th term?

"You know, I — there's no question, western Pennsylvania is a racist area. When I say a racist area, I mean they — the older people are hesitant, you know, they're slow in seeing change, real change."
(John Murtha)

"What I said was — that indicted everybody. That's not what I meant at all. What I mean is there are still folks that have a problem voting for somebody because they're black. This whole area, years ago, was really redneck, particularly older people. They're hesitant. You know they don't want — they want change, but they don't want to see things go too far."
(John Murtha explaining first remark)

"You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania...... So it’s not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
(Barack Obama)

The Dem's apparently don't think much of Pennsylvania residents...

(EDIT to fix spelling)
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Acoustic Interloper

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Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:48 am Post subject:

RF wrote:

"You know, I — there's no question, western Pennsylvania is a racist area. When I say a racist area, I mean they — the older people are hesitant, you know, they're slow in seeing change, real change."
(John Murtha)
...

My Mom, about 10 years ago, when she was a spritely 83 wrote:

Yes, I liked our waiter, but he was the wrong color.

Quote:

The Dem's apparently don't think much of Pennsylvania residents...

This country had slavery for a long time, a lot longer than a lot of other countries in the "Civilized World." It took a war that some people are still fighting in their fantasies to end it. It took the courts and the federal government almost a century to start enforcing amendments made to the Constitution after that war to let black people vote in certain geographic areas.

Cultures do not change over night. That's a fact of life, a scientific observation, and not necessarily a value judgement. You don't think that there are people, maybe a significant number of them in some geographic areas, would would vote for Obama's opponent, at least in part, because Obama is black? After the last two elections, we know how close these things can be, essentially nondeterministic, determined as much by the flap of a butterfly's wings as anything else. And, oh yeah, affected by a pack of lawyers and "operatives" invading the state and looking for ways to herd the locals, mostly by sewing fear, uncertainty and doubt. There's been enough of that over the last eight years.

I predict that Murtha will be reelected. He has enough integrity and cred to speak the truth from time to time.

I love my 93 year old Mom. She was born in Gettysburg. When her 53 year old Father died from a blood clot during the Great Depression, the banker who had assured him that he wouldn't foreclose on the farm's mortgage if anything happened during his surgery, foreclosed immediately, before his body was even in the ground, despite the fact that there were a total of 11 kids, most of them young adults still living on the farm, who could have run it. They herded the milk cows south to an uncle's farm in Maryland, not far away, to keep those out of that lying banker's hands. Not much about people changes in almost 100 years, does it? Which is exactly the point.

I bet that, if she were still of sufficient mental capacity to vote, she'd vote for Obama. She may be in part a product of her culture, but she had the capacity for outgrowing it at times, too. If he gets in next week, I can't wait to tell her. She comes back to life for a minute or two when something really gets her attention, and I have a feeling that an African American president elect would get her attention, and not in the "wrong" way. Very Happy

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dmosc

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Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:52 am Post subject:

RF wrote:

"You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania...... So it’s not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
(Barack Obama)

This quote is accurate but it is entirely out of context. It made the national news for a few days too before the dems countered by showing the remarks in context. It was a poor choice of words by Obama sure, but you are not understanding what he was getting at.

His point was that residents in the small towns of pennsylvania are frustrated with government, with the economy, and with a lack of attention. He is saying that this FALSELY manifests itself in voting based on religion, guns, anti-immigrant, anti-trade, and other divisive principles. His point was frustration leads to division and his solution was to attack the real issues rather than to get caught up in the divisive nature of Religion, Guns, et al.

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Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:37 pm Post subject:

dmosc wrote:

[but you are not understanding what he was getting at.
His point was that residents in the small towns of pennsylvania are frustrated with government, with the economy, and with a lack of attention. He is saying that this FALSELY manifests itself in voting based on religion, guns, anti-immigrant, anti-trade, and other divisive principles. His point was frustration leads to division and his solution was to attack the real issues rather than to get caught up in the divisive nature of Religion, Guns, et al.

Here's it is in context (granted, not the entire 45 minute speech)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTxXUufI3jA
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Scott Stites
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Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:01 am Post subject:

This isn't an election so much as it's an intervention. _________________ My Site

Acoustic Interloper

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Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:32 am Post subject:

Acoustic Interloper wrote:

Ha! I just got a robo call from Johnny The Reb, warning me about Barak Obama and his gangsta buddies of the past 20 years, and his vision of spreading the wealth, and how the Dems have derailed the economy in two short years. Big laundry list for a little call.

Guess Johnny forgot that he was calling a Yankee. I s'pect they should have hired one.

Even funnier one the other day, starts out: "Hi! My name is Angela, and I'm a Joe the Plumber . . ."

Must have had a sex change or something Question

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Acoustic Interloper

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Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:18 pm Post subject:

RF wrote:

Acoustic Interloper wrote:

.....Pennsylvanians had enough good sense to kick that reactionary Rick Santorum out of the U.S. Senate 2 years ago. I am pretty hopeful that a good measure of that good sense remains.

Good sense. I hope so.

You're damned straight! banana

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when shallow, she drinks.

Acoustic Interloper

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Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:29 am Post subject:

Acoustic Interloper wrote:

I predict that Murtha will be reelected. He has enough integrity and cred to speak the truth from time to time.

Murtha was readily reelected Very Happy

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when shallow, she drinks.

Acoustic Interloper

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Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:31 am Post subject:

Acoustic Interloper wrote:

I bet that, if she were still of sufficient mental capacity to vote, she'd vote for Obama. She may be in part a product of her culture, but she had the capacity for outgrowing it at times, too. If he gets in next week, I can't wait to tell her. She comes back to life for a minute or two when something really gets her attention, and I have a feeling that an African American president elect would get her attention, and not in the "wrong" way. Very Happy

My Mom was back to life for all of the 94th birthday dinner that my wife and I had with her last Saturday, so I got to give her the word about the U.S.'s first Afro-American president. The first word out of her mouth was, "Great!" Very Happy

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When the stream is deep
my wild little dog frolics,
when shallow, she drinks.

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