Does anyone plan to release Haible PCB's in the future?

zxplectrum · Joined: Nov 05, 2010 Posts: 1 Location: london

Losing a great guy like Juergen is one thing but losing his legacy of fantastic designs is a whole other....

jwilsey · Joined: Feb 24, 2009 Posts: 31 Location: Taichung City

Read here:
http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-50871.html&postorder=asc

patricef · Joined: Sep 07, 2012 Posts: 8 Location: France

Hello,

I'm new to the forum that I found while I was looking for PCB for the Subtle Chorus project. I'll be interested in buying the main board and the BBD board for a Dimension D clone. If some legal arrangement has been found with Jürgen Haible's family or if someone as some spare for sale, let me know. I can pay with bank transfer in EU (no fees) or Paypal.

Thanks

Patrice

Harry_W · Joined: Dec 01, 2011 Posts: 55 Location: Erlangen/Germany

Hello patricef,

I guess there is some confusion or misunderstanding about the legal issues connected with JH's pcb and their sale.

It does not (and never did) depend on the will of the Haible family that the boards are not available right now. If so, they would have allowed me (or someone else who would be willing to do the job) to start the selling and send the PCBs to everyone who made a request (we have registered already virtually hundreds of such requests).

It is also not a question of license fees or licensing itself. There is, as far as I know German law, no possibility to protect technical designs like schematics and pcbs, so if someone wants to clone Juergen's inventions, feel free to do so. If I ask you NOT to do this, it is because of respect to Juergen's life work, but I (ot the family) have no means to prevent you from doing so.

It is all about the German law (and the legal issues connected with Juergen and Birgit's divorce process). Birgit does not (and will probably never) have any ownership with Juergen's business and the existing pcbs or designs. These properties count as values of Juergen's heritage. If we started to sell property out of this heritage (and the legal authorities got aware of it - which is difficult to avoid because of all the customs, taxes... involved), Birgit could be filed for defalcation or concealment by the state.

Probability is that soon a trustee will be installed by these authorities, somebody who would care for the heritage for the sake of the children until their legal age. That trustee could then decide that the sale of pcbs could be resumed.

patricef · Joined: Sep 07, 2012 Posts: 8 Location: France

I wasn't aware of the divorce process. I did my last PCB 25 years ago, I have no equipment and I have no intend to make one myself. Thank for the clarification, I'll be watching the thread and I hope the sale of PCB will be resumed shortly.

sonicwarrior · Joined: Dec 22, 2005 Posts: 266 Location: Cologne, Germany

sduck · Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:58 pm Post subject:

It's time for these trustees to take action on this. Someone in Germany needs to make some connections.

elmegil · Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:15 am Post subject:

I think what's most baffling is that it would take so long just to appoint a trustee. I'm dealing with my father's estate, and it was frustrating that it took 2 months to get the paperwork appointing me as executor, but it was only 2 months....I understand that Juergens circumstances were likely more complicated than my dad's but even so....it's been over a year, right? Is that normal?

Harry_W · Joined: Dec 01, 2011 Posts: 55 Location: Erlangen/Germany

I'm sorry but I cannot tell you anything else.

And yes, it has been more than a year now, and the trustee is not installed yet.

Maybe someone could shed more light on the aging/oxidation issue. As a layman I have no clue how long these PCBs will remain intact and usable.

At the moment, they are still in their original plastic wrapping, as sent from the production, in batches of 25 or 50 per package. Some of the wrappings are still sealed, some had already been opened by Juergen to take ordered PCBs out of them,so they are partially filled. The humidity is a bit higher than in an apartment, I guess, because we have room to keep the boxes only in the cellar, but it is dry there and rather warm (no open windows, no moisture from outside).

Maybe if the authorities understand that the PCBs are a good with decreasing value, they will treat the case differently (a weak hope...).

Best regards
Harry_W

bubzy · Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:40 am Post subject:

give 'em a wipe and they'll be fine.

i don't normally comment about stuff like this but give Harry a break, he's done a fine job coming here to contact people at least, if it wasnt for his efforts we wouldnt even have the opportunity to get the pcb's, or perhaps know anything about the circumstances. It saddens me to see a community act like this, if the pcbs go to waste it would be a shame, but the law is the law, and correct and fair treatment of his property and his family is a lot more important than getting a synth module completed.

sonicwarrior · Joined: Dec 22, 2005 Posts: 266 Location: Cologne, Germany

bubzy · Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:34 am Post subject:

its because people are directing this at Harry. I know the problem is the system, but then shouldnt people be emailing the people in charge of the system? one guy is the face of this whole thing and he's apologising, its not his fault, he's got nothing to be sorry about. this is why i feel this way.

elmegil · Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:46 am Post subject:

I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly did not mean to direct my own comments at Harry. I am curious whether the system is this broken overall, or just happens to have run into a strange attractor in the case, but it's a mild curiosity.

sonicwarrior · Joined: Dec 22, 2005 Posts: 266 Location: Cologne, Germany

bubzy · Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:03 am Post subject:

sonicwarrior · Joined: Dec 22, 2005 Posts: 266 Location: Cologne, Germany

wmonk · Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:34 pm Post subject:

There are big differences between systems of civil procedural law even in countries who have a civil law code (like most of continental Europe).
Some of these systems are even slower then the others. There are plans to harmonize it in Europe, and we can all hope they choose the fastest system Wink

Harry_W · Joined: Dec 01, 2011 Posts: 55 Location: Erlangen/Germany

Hello everybody,

I am very sorry that an issue has been raised between members of the community because of the long legal delay in Juergen's case.

I can assure you that I really don't feel bothered or offended by any of you because of your expressed impatience. I for myself feel very sorry that >2000 PCBs are rotting in my cellar instead of giving you some joy in music making...

The legal situation is so complicated (and authorities take so long) because this is a very strange case of heritage. Usually, there are heirs who will own the property of the person that died, and they will decide what to do (even if there is no testament there is a legal ranking who will inherit how much). In our case, Juergen passed away all over sudden, with no testament left over, in the middle of a divorce process, where before they had agreed on separation of property. The only heirs, Juergen's children, cannot decide about the heritage before they reach legal age, and their mother, Birgit, is not allowed to decide anything.

When Juergen died, he left his computer and bank accounts locked, without any information about passwords, and nobody knows where else he had connections to (e.g. the deposit of the herber files).

You cannot imagine how many blank forms Birgit had to fill until now, how many times she had to negotiate with attorneys and judges, how she struggled to make ends meet; with two children and a job of her own. The "hobby" of Juergen is her least concern, so to say, therefore I try to keep track of the legal state of the heritage.

As mentioned, a trustee could be a good way to provide a contact person for all future business plans involving Juergen's PCB design...

But even if the PCB business should be resumed again and somebody could take over the handling, packing, custom clearing, mailing of PCBs, it is not clear by far who should do this.

In the meantime my hands are tied, and I can only collect your requests, for a better future. The reason why I started to contact this community at all was that I knew that Birgit would not afford to do this (besides the language problem); but at the same time I knew that I would not be able to do anything, except to be the "wire" between the Haible family and you, the electronic community.

I am not an electrical engineer, I have no thumbs for soldering, I cannot even play piano (which I regret). I am very audiophile, I like good music, but that is all which connects me to Juergen's hobby. Please, simply do not expect too much from me.

Best regards,
Harry

elmegil · Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:28 pm Post subject:

Your efforts to keep us informed are greatly appreciated, Harry.

sonicwarrior · Joined: Dec 22, 2005 Posts: 266 Location: Cologne, Germany

thebot · Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:05 am Post subject:

Thanks for taking the time to update us Harry. I've only had the pleasure of building one of Jurgen's circuits so far but it's one of my favourite modules (the Polymoog Resonator).

FatherMysk · Joined: Dec 22, 2008 Posts: 5 Location: Sweden

Harry, what you have done in the tragic loss of Jürgen and his estate, is far more than anyone can expect, I really appreciate all the effort you have put in to this

About aging of PCB:s, as long as they are stored in a dry place they don’t age, the only thing that might happen is that a thin layer of oxide is building up on the soldering points, which is easy to remove with a polish cloth

Harry_W · Joined: Dec 01, 2011 Posts: 55 Location: Erlangen/Germany

There might be another issue on the PCBs, I mean on the designs themselves:

As I understood from some of the postings, the parts which are needed to poulate the PCBs with are getting out of stock at electronic providers.

Could someone here please inform me which parts (for which designs) are already getting rare or - worst case - are already unavailable (most probably ICs, filters and such), so the PCBs will be virtually worthless, or if there are replacements possible, with minor modifications on the rest of the parts, or little PCB "extensions"?

I know this is a wide field, but I am completely clueless on this topic. It would help me to asses the "potentials" in selling the PCBs as soon as they become available...

Thanks a lot,
Harry_W

patricef · Joined: Sep 07, 2012 Posts: 8 Location: France

Harry, thanks for being the "link" on this case. I'm not sure which components are getting rare, but I guess:
HA1457W opamps
2SA505 transistors
NE570 chip
MN3101 BBD Clock Driver
MN3007 BBD

BTW, I wonder how the authorities would handle the case if Jürgen had a stock of fruits and vegetables instead of PCB, would they wait until the children legal age or try to sell the stock right away ? I think in every country bureaucracy is overpowering common sense... Rolling Eyes

KnobHell · Joined: Jan 28, 2012 Posts: 56 Location: SLC

If the German beauracrats are anything like the beauracrats in the states they probably don't give a shit about one individual. Take a number and stand in line...

Is in possible to get the circuit board layouts so we can make our own boards without starting from scratch? I'm not suggesting publishing them generally, but sending them to those who are going to build one for their own use.