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Afro88
Joined: Jun 20, 2004
Posts: 701
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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 Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 12:29 am Post subject:
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| DrJustice wrote: | | When Clavia now shows zero interest in this issue, I'm worried about what that means in terms of long time NM ownership and usage, and I'm curious about their policies and philosophies towards products and customers. Remember that we're not talking a $20 webcam or something, we're talking a $2000+ musical instrument, and I do believe that musicians want a fairly long term relationship with an instrument. |
It wasn't zero interest they showed, it was negative interest. They had a trade in deal for a G2 near the end of 2004/early 2005 IIRC. This would have made sense if the G2 could run G1 patches but it can't. It seems that the NM G1 line has been completely ditched and whenever a G3 comes out we can more than likely expect the same to happen to the G2. |
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 3:21 am Post subject:
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| DrJustice wrote: | | By maintaining that situation, I mean that the editor ought to be kept running flawlessly on Mac OS9 to Mac OSX and Windows 98 to Windows XP, and soon Vista and whatever Apple comes up with next. |
Agreed.
That said, I have commented on how the NM-1 and G2 overlap, and the way I understand the G2 it is more or less a new look on what the NM-1 is supposed to be rather than a truly new product. It is not an update on the NM-1 design and it is not truly a completely "new" product. It is slightly unfocused. ( And this is probably why Clavia feels that the NM-1 has to go. )
Still, this does not mean I think Clavia has done a bad job and I do understand why Clavia is struggling. The situation is rather typical of how small and clever companies handle product development and market strategies.
None of the above does however mean that the G2 stinks or that Clavia is evil. These problems are quite normal. BTW: I spent 5 minutes on the phone just now with a guy who bought a new Virus. He has a temper these days.  He is from the northern part of Norway which means that the terms "hestkuk" and "faens steike hainn statans gudmor" and similar are vital components when he feels the world does not agree with him. And he has a G2 too.
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Last edited by elektro80 on Thu May 04, 2006 3:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
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blue hell
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Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 3:35 am Post subject:
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As far as I can tell RE the Classic editor there are problems with MIDI drivers, this has been the case under win 98 and this is still the case under XP. I had trouble running the editor on XP as well until I got some drivers that worked (for the MidiMan 2x2). For XP SP-2 I had to turn on win 98 compatibility mode, but could still use the same drivers. I've always suspected the MIDI protocol used by Clavia to be less than optimal and being the true cause for these (disconnection) problems.
But anyway, whether you are happy or not, the NM Classic is a closed book, officially dead, and when wanting to use it you'll have to find your ways.
I'm glad I'm not into marketing 
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Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Kassen
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Joined: Jul 06, 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 5:46 am Post subject:
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Ok, so that's official? So I'm now allowed to say Clavia did in fact break the prommises made to me personally?
Cool, I wasn't allowed to previously; they did. Clavia prommised me to fix the bugs I reported and didn't. Back when I bought it they also prommised to make instruments that last a lifetime. I don't like doing business with people that don't keep their promisses and so I won't do business with Clavia again and recomend to others they don't either.
That being said; I think complaining about a lack of compatibility with OSX or XP is like Bush whining that other countries want to have nuclear weapons as well. The whole point of OSX and XP is to be incompattible; they are designed for this from the ground up, DRM included. France demanded that I-tunes files be opened to non-ipod players, Apple fought them. The "open NM" project scared Clavia and so they made the G2 interface harder to reverse-engineer. Don't buy that stuff if this offends you. It's convenient at some moments, hell at others, you knew that from the start, you bought into it; deal with it.
Back when the G2 came out I had some deep thoughts about it all. It cost 2000 bucks but this, I realised, was only a small part of the investment to be made. A much larger part of the inbvestment is the time needed to learn the new system. Return on that investment depends on what you can do with it and how long you'll be able to use it. Considdering that I needed a new modular anyway this made me look into open alternatives. Csound seemed too slow in actual practice, SC didn't click with me, then ChucK showed up.
I noticed nobody here has been asking for a open interface; people are asking for compatibility with the closed proprietry platform they are running at the moment. This is a battle you'll keep losing. In ten years something else will be fashionable and "taking the world by storm", if you get what you ask for now, will you be begging again by then?
I sugest people either admit that they actively choose a closed platform and deal with it or switch to something open and instead of complaining about what's wrong help out developing that.Feature sugestions, detailed bug reports and even helping write the documentation will all be very welcome there.
I've said this from the beginning but was told to shut up, the limitations people are now asking about is all stuff I was hammering at a year and a half ago. I won't say you guys got what you deserved because you deserve better but I do think you got exactly what you aksed for.
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mosc
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Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:01 am Post subject:
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| DrJustice wrote: | | The big point is: for the NM, Clavia made the decision to offload a major part of the product functionality to an external general system that customers are likely to use. I.e. we're talking about their standard daily/studio/whatever PC - that is (was?) clearly the idea. In doing so they put themselves in a position of responsibility for maintaining that situation for a reasonable amount of time and evolution of standard PCs. By maintaining that situation, I mean that the editor ought to be kept running flawlessly on Mac OS9 to Mac OSX and Windows 98 to Windows XP, and soon Vista and whatever Apple comes up with next. |
I don't know about responsibility. When I bought my NM1 it ran with windows 98 and ME. There was no claim that it would work with Linux or Apple, and certainly no claim that it would work with furture operating sytems yet to be released by companies that have nothing to do with them.
When you buy Logic from Apple now, there is no claim it will work with a future version of Apple's OS. They may or may not sell you another release when that happens, or they may choose to discontinue the product entirely. When you buy Sonar, there is no claim it will work on any platform other than the one for which it is released. Everytime there is a new release of Windows, there is a new release of Sonar. You pay up or shut up. That is expected - nobody complains.
WTF - if you want to run a NM1, then use a computer that it was designed to work with. If you want to run a more modern computer, then get a G2.
Hey, I don't want to run either Windows or OSX. I want to run Linux, but if I want to use certain commercial programs, I'm stuck. I pick the platform to match the software.
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Kassen
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:20 am Post subject:
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| mosc wrote: |
I don't know about responsibility. When I bought my NM1 it ran with windows 98 and ME. There was no claim that it would work with Linux or Apple, and certainly no claim that it would work with furture operating sytems yet to be released by companies that have nothing to do with them.
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I think there was. I think that was implied in the "last a lifetime" promise made back then. I think that prommise implied they would open it at some point since my life can be expected to last another 5 or so decades.
At the very least Clavia prommised me personally another update to fix bugs, then didn't. That's a clear case where they did excplicidly asume a responcibility, then ignored it. Maybe not "evil" as such but now that everybody agrees the NM is no longer supported and there won't be a upate I get to call them what they are; independable liers. They aren't unique in that by a long strech but I think that's a good reason not to do business with them and I think that's a good reason to discourage others from doing business with them.
At the very least they should publicly apologise.
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DrJustice
Joined: Sep 13, 2004
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Location: Morokulien
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 7:03 am Post subject:
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| mosc wrote: | | When you buy Sonar, there is no claim it will work on any platform other than the one for which it is released. |
No, but it is common practice for those who make application software to anticipate that there will be changes in the platforms, volatile as they are, and to maintain the software for a long time over several OS releases.
| Quote: | | Everytime there is a new release of Windows, there is a new release of Sonar. You pay up or shut up. That is expected - nobody complains. |
Exactly. I'd be happy to pay a fee for updates to NM-type software as well. I suggested this, but Clavia didn't comment on it.
| Quote: | | WTF - if you want to run a NM1, then use a computer that it was designed to work with. If you want to run a more modern computer, then get a G2. |
IMO that is unreasonable. The NM1 wasn't designed to work with a particular computer. Granted, it's supporting software was initially released on Win98/MacOS9, but Clavia should have anticipated and planned for changes and updates (the obvious thing would be the unified editor). That would have constituted good practice in this kind of business.
I really have sworn in church here, haven't I? 
DJ
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elektro80
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 7:09 am Post subject:
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| DrJustice wrote: | ....(the obvious thing would be the unified editor). That would have constituted good practice in this kind of business.
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Yes.
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elektro80
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 7:13 am Post subject:
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| DrJustice wrote: | I really have sworn in church here, haven't I?
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Yes 
Anyways, "samemafian" will soon be a household concept in the US.
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elektro80
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 7:40 am Post subject:
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| Kassen wrote: | | mosc wrote: |
I don't know about responsibility. When I bought my NM1 it ran with windows 98 and ME. There was no claim that it would work with Linux or Apple, and certainly no claim that it would work with furture operating sytems yet to be released by companies that have nothing to do with them.
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I think there was. I think that was implied in the "last a lifetime" promise made back then. I think that prommise implied they would open it at some point since my life can be expected to last another 5 or so decades.
At the very least Clavia prommised me personally another update to fix bugs, then didn't. That's a clear case where they did excplicidly asume a responcibility, then ignored it. Maybe not "evil" as such but now that everybody agrees the NM is no longer supported and there won't be a upate I get to call them what they are; independable liers. They aren't unique in that by a long strech but I think that's a good reason not to do business with them and I think that's a good reason to discourage others from doing business with them.
At the very least they should publicly apologise. |
You are entitled to feel that way. On the other hand I am kinda expecting all small companies like Clavia to get into this kind of "mess". This is standard practice. At least Clavia has managed to make some decent instruments.
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Fozzie
Joined: Jun 04, 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 7:57 am Post subject:
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| Kassen wrote: |
I think there was. I think that was implied in the "last a lifetime" promise made back then. I think that prommise implied they would open it at some point since my life can be expected to last another 5 or so decades.
At the very least Clavia prommised me personally another update to fix bugs, then didn't. That's a clear case where they did excplicidly asume a responcibility, then ignored it. Maybe not "evil" as such but now that everybody agrees the NM is no longer supported and there won't be a upate I get to call them what they are; independable liers. They aren't unique in that by a long strech but I think that's a good reason not to do business with them and I think that's a good reason to discourage others from doing business with them.
At the very least they should publicly apologise. |
So your G1 doesn't work anymore? "Last a lifetime" can be interpreted in many ways and I don't see the current lack of all-possible-support-for-all-conceivable-OSes as anything that is in direct opposition to that statement.
I also disagree that buying a Nord Modular of any kind implies a free Clavia service for years of keeping things running on all major OSes. IMHO, that's a personal expectation that is not fueled by any Clavia marketing. If you buy an instrument (for a large amount of cash, so you should have thought long and hard about it  ) that depends on a PC for editing, you should know what you are getting yourself into. Nothing has eternal life on a PC (or Apple, for that matter).
I was majorly disappointed a few years ago when it was made public that there would not be a V4.0, although it had been announced before with ever-changing dates. But to keep going on about this, calling Clavia a bunch of liars and calling for a "ban clavia" is a bit much IMHO. I hope businesses and/or people are not judged like that too often after not keeping their word once.
Never buy anything in synthieland for what is promised as a future feature, buy it only for what it is now. I think that's a sad but widely accepted recipe for keeping yourself synthesizing happily. |
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Kassen
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:52 pm Post subject:
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I'm sorry. I wrote those posts too quickly and was too harsh at the moment.
I maintain there are issues and that a different way of dealing with them would be preferable and might benefit both the world and eventually also Clavia but I shouldn't have put it that B&W.
I apologise.
In the end I would still like everybody to considder that one of the prime concerns behind Csound being open is preserving all the music that was written in it and enable it's "live performance" (in so far as that applies) or study but that's a concern that stands on is own independant of this discussion.
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Kassen
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 7:03 pm Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: | | DrJustice wrote: | I really have sworn in church here, haven't I?
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Yes
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Sure, but would you realy like to attend the kind of church that wouldn't allow that?
Is there even a major world religion that wasn't a heresey at some point to some?
I think we *should* all have issues. At the very least we should take issue with the music that's already out there and we should make hurry in remidying the situation by writing the music we'd like to hear. I also feel that it's a great sign if the instruments we desire aren't already out there and we should attempt to create those.
I respect those who feel that canon isn't nesicarily the oponent of spirituality (to continue your analogy) but I'd say that it's not particularly helpfull either,
Swearing in the church is a patcher's nature, I believe.
:¬)
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dasz
Joined: Oct 16, 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 8:25 pm Post subject:
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I like to invent stuff. Inspire Me.
/Dasz |
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Neon Sega
Joined: Mar 31, 2006
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Location: ru msc
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| Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 6:13 am Post subject:
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A much larger part of the investment is the time needed to learn the new system. Return on that investment depends on what you can do with it and how long you'll be able to use it.
I'd be happy to pay a fee for updates to NM-type software as well. I suggested this, but Clavia didn't comment on it.
Yeeeeh!!!!
Right to me!
My time is mine
I have NMK (G1) and G2. I'll buy G3. But... what about to continue Classic Nord Modular? What's the price for? |
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