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mosc
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 Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:37 am Post subject:
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| disturb wrote: | Thanks for the answer James, still processing all this info 
BTW, i just found out that IRCAM's OpenMusic is open source, seems like the distribution fo linux has started, and windows seems to be on its way, anyone ever tried this program ?
Looks like everything i could wish for... |
This is written on top of Lisp. I have used many Lisp applications - none ever met up with the expectations. In my experience Lisp is a language for academics; I've never seen anything practical. Any application in Lisp that shows promise is always rewritten in C or something else. This is what one would expect from a state-funded art research institution. It will generate a lot of papers and nobody will use it.
I hope I am wrong.
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Kassen
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:34 pm Post subject:
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| disturb wrote: |
Well unfortunately i don't have much to share regarding specifics right now...
I'm really new to this and don't have any experience with any of the softwares i'm eying right now.
All i have is this abstract idea of how i'd want it to work, and i'm afraid i won't be able to get into specifics until i settle for a development environment.
Because how it will actually work will depend on how things can be implemented, and that's deeply tied to the software itself...
I must say i'm a bit biased towards MAX from the start, since i've no experience with coding languages (even when it's as 'simple' as chuck or python) and i feel a bit intimidated by text based programming. It seems the graphic interface will make it easier to have some quick feedback on what's going on 
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Hmmm. I honestly think defining what you want will be the hardest part, not learning a language. I also think this will actually be easier in a text-based language then in a graphical one.
All the features that you mention would be relatively easy to do in ChucK (my own favourite system) aside from the whole "intelligently adapting" thing. That bit would likely also be straightforward to implement *as soon as you know what exactly you mean by intelligently adapting". If that's clear to you then this will be a matter of a few evenings of getting to grips with the syntax followed by a few days of implementing and you're done.
As long as you know *exactly* what you want coding is quite easy. Generally I'll spend no more then two hours coding at a time max but it's the time thinking inbetween that counts.... That may take weeks for some problems.
I wouldn't use a big general purpose language like C++ at this stage because that would require learning lots of things that aren't interesting with regard to this problem. Graphical languages would be fine -probabably- untill you run into the whole "intelligent" thing where I predict text-based ones will be easier. Basically that leaves ChucK and SC. To me ChucK seems easier to read and write but others feel the exact oposite so it would be best to look at both.
Most of the problem would be defining exactly what you want. I think I'd caution against picking a system and being led along by it's options. Any system up to this task would be "turing complete" which means it can calculate anything that can be calculated. The important thing here is what you want and desire, not what's on offer. Personally I've grown a bit weary of graphical feedback when it's not needed, auditory feedback seems much more apropriate to me for musical systems but clearly most of the world disagrees with that at the moment.
Best of luck!
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Kassen
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:54 pm Post subject:
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| mosc wrote: |
This is written on top of Lisp. I have used many Lisp applications - none ever met up with the expectations. In my experience Lisp is a language for academics; I've never seen anything practical. Any application in Lisp that shows promise is always rewritten in C or something else. This is what one would expect from a state-funded art research institution. It will generate a lot of papers and nobody will use it.
I hope I am wrong. |
You are wrong
Lisp is used extensively for systems like the ones that calculate what flights to book given a set of constraints (like departure times amongst tens of airports and so on) that, BTW, is a very hard problem indeed.
The main reason it's often rewritten is that good Lisp programers are rare and modern companies like to be able to replace people.
It's true that Lisp is generally a language of accedemics but that's because accedemics tend to run into harder and more abstract problems then the rest of the world. Typically companies that develop games or spreadsheets or web-servers aren't much concerned with theoretical mathematics, for example. C is cool to calculate things, Lisp is what you'd use if you would want to define a new type of mathematics. Most people are happy with just calculating things which is fine.
You can't blame Lisp for the Lisp aplications that you've seen, there are plenty that you don't. Fortunately increasingly the world is seeing the beauty of Lisp and many languages are slowly incorporating concepts pionered by Lisp.
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elektro80
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:05 pm Post subject:
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There has been a lot of junk written in LISP, but that hardly says anything sensible about LISP itself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LISP
LISP is ok.
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Kassen
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:18 pm Post subject:
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| Mosc wrote: | This is what one would expect from a state-funded art research institution. It will generate a lot of papers and nobody will use it.
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Wait, I missed this. Are you refering to IRCAM?
Are you aware at all of the sort of thing developed there and what the people that graduate from it go on to do? I'm typing this right now on a OS co-developed by IRCAM. All of the digital synths that sound best to me come from IRCAM graduates. Just for kicks; look up the history of MAX/MSP, would you say that's something that "nobody will use"? Did you ever hear of Modalys?
I personally know a few people that worked with IRCAM in various capacities and the sort of thing that goes on there is decades ahead of consumer electronics like comercial keyboards and DAWS.
I think we should be extremely gratefull that there are some "state-funded art research institutions" where people lovingly and pasionately create tools for a very limited audience, often on very modest pay, to allow (often for free) some daring individuals to realise their own dreams instead of depending on what the market offers today as a re-packaged form of yesterday's technology.
I'm very happy that accedemic papers are often available online with very valuable ideas on new technologies and I'm delighted I can use the tools developed at IRCAM and at similar institutions the world over.
End rant. Please resume drooling over Clavia re-inventing the rompler.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:25 pm Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: |
LISP is ok. |
Wow. That's the first time I ever hear anyone say that. Mostly people hate it (which seems to equate to not understanding it) or love it.
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elektro80
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:27 pm Post subject:
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| Kassen wrote: | | elektro80 wrote: |
LISP is ok. |
Wow. That's the first time I ever hear anyone say that. Mostly people hate it (which seems to equate to not understanding it) or love it. |
I´m an old retarted fart, that´s why.  
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:39 pm Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: |
I´m an old retarted fart, that´s why. |
Ah, you don't care much for these new-fangled "higer languages"?
There are some great quotations at the bottom of that WIKIpage, BTW.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:44 pm Post subject:
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| Kassen wrote: | | elektro80 wrote: |
I´m an old retarted fart, that´s why. |
Ah, you don't care much for these new-fangled "higer languages"? |
Those are cool. Things are what they are. I feel like a balanced well-adjusted male today. 
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Kassen
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:47 pm Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: | | Things are what they are. I feel like a balanced well-adjusted male today. |
I'm proud of you. 
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mosc
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:13 pm Post subject:
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| Kassen wrote: | | I think we should be extremely gratefull that there are some "state-funded art research institutions". |
Me to, especially someone else's state. 
BTW, if your are into programming for mathematics, don't use Lisp, use APL.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:27 pm Post subject:
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Pure math is not what LISP excels at. True.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:30 pm Post subject:
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APL is OK of sorts. I do however remember some attempts at using APL for stuff it simply was not good at. For certain types of scientific computation, it has lost out to matlab.
"APL is a mistake, carried through to perfection. It is the language of the future for the programming techniques of the past: it creates a new generation of coding bums."
Edsger Dijkstra, 1968
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:35 pm Post subject:
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Being norwegian I might just mention Simula.. but.. not today.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:46 pm Post subject:
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| mosc wrote: |
Me to, especially someone else's state.
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Well fortunately there are responcible countries like France that, unlike boneheaded ones like the U....
(had you there, didn't I?)
Actually there is similar research being done in the US and there are similar projects for download. Just a few days ago I grabbed this very nice looking thingy called "Processing" that came out of the MIT Media lab. That's not in LISP but I'm sure I could dig up some MIT Media lab lisp projects without clear practical use beyond making experimental art because the media lab used to be big on AI and AI people tend to like LISP.
Did you know that Princeton not only has a music department but that it also has a Computer Sience department that -much to my delight- uses your tax-money on trying to make noises in new ways?
I'm fine with it if that's your opinion, it just sounds a bit odd considering you run a site on experimental electronic music. Frankly I don't see how LISP inherently makes a tool by a world-renowned institute bad or how papers are bad or for that matter why it should be taken out on IRCAM that people generally use Fruityloops more then their tools. You just looked at it, saw it was done in LISP and concluded it must be crap? You'll have a hard time coming to the Netherlands this summer if your traveling isn't allowed to be facilitated by LISP...
| Quote: |
BTW, if your are into programming for mathematics, don't use Lisp, use APL. |
I'm not nesicarily into programing for mathematics, I have been thinking about getting a new LISP interperter installed again if I can get it to output MIDI because it's interperted and allows for aditions to programs through a sort of dialog so that might be very usefull and interesting for music. What are the advantages of APL over LISP? On Wikipedia the APL examples look about as readable as obfuscated Perl and I see no mention of a Lambda operator, doesn't look like a good replacement for LISP to me at all.
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Kassen
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:56 pm Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: | | Pure math is not what LISP excels at. True. |
Depends on how you define "pure". Lisp is pritty good at helping prove theorems, it's also nice if you would like to define some new mathematical operator.
It's not nescarily a sensible choice for just calculating numbers but then again, I wouldn't call that "pure math"
edit;
Oh, wait, on closer inspection APL can also do many of the things I asociate with LISP. Oh, well... I just like the ideas behind LISP. I also like IRCAM and I like it when states also fund a bit of art-research. There's no real need to agree on any of that.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:22 am Post subject:
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Lucid Common Lisp allowed one to link in C functions that could be called from the interpreter. So a midi interface would have been a snap. Lucid was cool! I hate it that they died.
I played with APL a little but I found both the syntax and lexical aspects too dense.
Scheme is the most beautiful language I've ever used. Everything is a first class object and can be passed as such, even the stack.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:45 am Post subject:
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Some time long ago I simulated processors in APL. For that it was quite OK mainly due to the strong builtin matrix support stuff. This was before VHDL like stuff came into fashion.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:02 am Post subject:
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| Kassen wrote: | | elektro80 wrote: | | Pure math is not what LISP excels at. True. |
Depends on how you define "pure". Lisp is pretty good at helping prove theorems, it's also nice if you would like to define some new mathematical operator.
It's not nescarily a sensible choice for just calculating numbers but then again, I wouldn't call that "pure math" |
You know what I mean.
As for concepts and style, you should google Simula. You might find it of general interest, even though you probaly will never have to mess with it.
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Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:27 am Post subject:
Re: I want to build a midi perfomance setup
Subject description: But i'm sweating over the different software options... |
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| disturb wrote: | That probably sounds a little too abstract (and it still is for me tbh), but here is a practical example of something i'd like to achieve.
A sequencer to build chord progressions :
-it would work in scale degrees
-could easiely be switched to different scales
-would allow you to sequence by directly inputing a degree/chord type/inversion
-would somehow be 'smart' about the process of fitting chords to a scale, rather than blindly force an inappropriate chord to a key (maybe dynamically rearrange the chords list for each degree, according to the degree of pertinence with the current scale perhaps)
-have the capabilty to do such things as automatically select inversions to bias the voice leading. For example a 'realistic' mode, that would pick the inversions, so that the keys are as close to each other as possible ; pretty much like a keyboardist (maybe not a real talented one ) would do.
The control over how the voice leading evolves is a good example of the type of interaction i'm aiming at.
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This sounds familiar.
One of the holy grails in the music psychology field ( but it is more a kind of interdisicplinary thing these days ) has been to make a composing machine. There are different takes on how to achieve this and why you would want it. There are some out there already too. There are also several languages/enviroments for building such stuff. One of the reasons LISP is popping up in this field now and then is because of how LISP has been used for AI stuff and Expert Systems and such.
I´m pretty sure there are software tols out there already you can use. Probably none of these are completely what you think it is you really want, but a great way to do research is to use and learn what is out there already.
Is what you think you need really a smart auto-accompaniement tool.. like a high-browed version of Band-in-a-box?
Such a tool is in a way not completely unlike playing with a band. The style of music agreed upon, or communicated while playing, is what holds the supposedly valid rules. A good band can create its own rules, or adapt rules while playing. Software needs to be told in a more strict fashion what is going on.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:38 am Post subject:
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| Kassen wrote: | | elektro80 wrote: | | Pure math is not what LISP excels at. True. |
Depends on how you define "pure". Lisp is pretty good at helping prove theorems, it's also nice if you would like to define some new mathematical operator.
It's not nescarily a sensible choice for just calculating numbers but then again, I wouldn't call that "pure math" |
I gota side with Kassen. Pure math is one of the many things that Lisp excels at. Macsyma was written in it (maclisp). I love it and still use it. Man am I good a buying products from companies that are doomed.
I think what you meant to say is that applied math (numerical analysis, etc) is not what Lisp excels at---isn't it 
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Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:49 am Post subject:
Re: I want to build a midi perfomance setup
Subject description: But i'm sweating over the different software options... |
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| elektro80 wrote: | | disturb wrote: | That probably sounds a little too abstract (and it still is for me tbh), but here is a practical example of something i'd like to achieve.
A sequencer to build chord progressions :
-it would work in scale degrees
-could easiely be switched to different scales
-would allow you to sequence by directly inputing a degree/chord type/inversion
-would somehow be 'smart' about the process of fitting chords to a scale, rather than blindly force an inappropriate chord to a key (maybe dynamically rearrange the chords list for each degree, according to the degree of pertinence with the current scale perhaps)
-have the capabilty to do such things as automatically select inversions to bias the voice leading. For example a 'realistic' mode, that would pick the inversions, so that the keys are as close to each other as possible ; pretty much like a keyboardist (maybe not a real talented one ) would do.
The control over how the voice leading evolves is a good example of the type of interaction i'm aiming at.
|
This sounds familiar.
One of the holy grails in the music psychology field ( but it is more a kind of interdisicplinary thing these days ) has been to make a composing machine. There are different takes on how to achieve this and why you would want it. There are some out there already too. There are also several languages/enviroments for building such stuff. One of the reasons LISP is popping up in this field now and then is because of how LISP has been used for AI stuff and Expert Systems and such.
I´m pretty sure there are software tols out there already you can use. Probably none of these are completely what you think it is you really want, but a great way to do research is to use and learn what is out there already.
Is what you think you need really a smart auto-accompaniement tool.. like a high-browed version of Band-in-a-box?
Such a tool is in a way not completely unlike playing with a band. The style of music agreed upon, or communicated while playing, is what holds the supposedly valid rules. A good band can create its own rules, or adapt rules while playing. Software needs to be told in a more strict fashion what is going on. |
No, my goal is more geared towards something like parametric composition rather han generative stuff. Think of it as using a simple motive, and control the actual processes that generate its derivates.
A simple analogy would be the use of heavy automations on an advanced arpeggiator ; the basic motive is the chords you feed it, but the actual processing/sequencing is the control of the arp's params, like distance between steps, note length, retriggers etc...
I just want to be able to sequence on a higher level than note level, that's all...
Cognitone music seems to be onto something pretty impressive with their music prototyping studio, which would be on par with the higer level paradigm, but lacking true interactions/real time playability : http://www.cognitone.com/products/mps/screenshots/page.stml |
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mosc
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:53 am Post subject:
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| Kassen wrote: | | Did you know that Princeton not only has a music department but that it also has a Computer Sience department that -much to my delight- uses your tax-money on trying to make noises in new ways? |
Princeton is a private university. They do receive government contracts, but usually for some public engineering (like NASA) or military purposes. MIT is private too.
I seriously doubt that Lisp is used by any airline for practical purposes. I would like to see differently though.
BTW, do a job search for Lisp programmers in some area, like NYC. Compare it to some other language, like C for example. If you read the Lisp mailing list archives, it's like the story of a sinking ship - "how do I move my Lisp application to (Python, C, etc.)?" I have programmed in Lisp, so I have some experience. AFAIK, there was one Lisp programmer at Bell Labs when I was there. He was sort of a token.
Kassen, you are jumping to conclusions. I'm not against research and papers. I was twice Program Chairman for the IEEE Symposium for VLSI for Signal Processing and am the editor of two IEEE books on that subject. I've written about 13 papers myself for the SMPTE and IEEE.
I do tend to sarcasm sometimes. I apologize.
IRCAM is cool. I studied with Jean Claude Risset when he was at Stanford. I'm not knocking IRCAM. Viva la France.
I'm not blasting all of those old AI languages either. Kyma is written is Smalltalk.
But, back to the topic. If you are trying to put together a MIDI performance setup, I'd suggest sticking to something tried and true. If you like the visual programming style of coding, then pick PD or MAX.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:53 am Post subject:
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| bachus wrote: | | I think what you meant to say is that applied math (numerical analysis, etc) is not what Lisp excels at---isn't it |
Indeed. As you already know, there are militant and outspoken APL number cruncher groups out there who thinks anything else is kinda gay and liberal. You count and chop apples. Any "math " that allows the apples to vote for Ralph Nader, choose to be oranges or be a little bit of this and that depending on why and when you count them.. such math is pinky fluffy fairy stuff. I only tried to be politically correct. I wouldn´t want any arian APL heads to semtex my neighbourhood. So there.. 
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:58 am Post subject:
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APL is used almost exclusively by actuaries - people that figure out, among other things, insurance rates.
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