| Is there any interest in PCBs that emulate old Deltalab Delays? |
| Yes - they still have a unique sound, and you can easily modulate their clock with a CV just like a BBD |
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85% |
[ 12 ] |
| No. We have much better digital technology now. Who needs a Delay that overloads on transients ?! |
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14% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 14 |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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 Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject:
Deltalab-Like stuff ? |
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Just looking for future projects. (Don't worry: The FS-1a will be next.)
Is there any interest in PCBs that emulate old Deltalab Delays?
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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23isgood
Joined: Nov 18, 2006
Posts: 236
Location: San Francisco, CA bay area
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject:
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Well, where can I hear one? Is it a BBD device?
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numbernone
Joined: Aug 16, 2006
Posts: 477
Location: new york city
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:33 am Post subject:
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I have several effectrons, I love em all.
What kind of improvements might we see?
One of mine is currently trimmed into the insanity zone, acting as a sort of random tone generator. I sometimes use it with the ESP of the MS20 to get wild trigger patterns, and envelopes.
So I am covered on standalones, tho I would love to build one into modular format. My only hope would be for chips slightly more accesible than the TDAs in the triple chorus. |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject:
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| numbernone wrote: |
So I am covered on standalones, tho I would love to build one into modular format. My only hope would be for chips slightly more accesible than the TDAs in the triple chorus. |
Oh, there aren't any special chips required, as far as I can tell.
But you need a lot *more* chips than for a BBD chorus, or for a modern digital delay.
It's easy to modulate that stuff with analogue means, however. I think MAM made a delta modulation based flanger shortly before ... (well, I don't even know what the official current status of the company is.)
Compared to BBDs, there's the much better SNR of course.
I think it would be possible to make a Dim D, or other high end chorus, without compander, using this technology. (The whole method, ADM, has in internal companding function, of course.) The same is true for any "standard" digital delay, of course (I love my D-Two) - but with ADM you have a certain "character" that is not "dirty" like BBDs, and not "clean" like modern sigma-delta ADCs either. And you can easily modulate the clock VCOs with analogue means.
As the thread and poll suggests, I have no idea if it'd be worth starting such a project. (I built a ADM chorus about 20 years ago, but don't have it anymore.) Want to find out if there are enough fans of the "deltalab sound" for such a project to make sense.
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
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Location: Loss Angeles
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:27 pm Post subject:
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My first bet is that you have some modern substitute in mind for the original memory ICs! 
The delays after the DL2 were all harsh-sounding to my ears. The 2 is also somewhat bandwidth-limited, and has a touch of pleasant midrange boost, which is useful. I have a broken memory expander, which goes up to 2 seconds, and the one time that I heard one working, there seemed to be noise involved somehow. I don't know if it's the result of miscalibration or ???
One interesting thing about the 2 is the variable feedback point, and that it can move through its gradations automatically if you wish. And the interaction between the Repeat (guessing at the switch name) plus LFO modulation- IIRC, the LFO sweeps the delay downward like a chorus etc. but when it reaches the bottom of its cycle, it samples and then sweeps the pitch up until it reaches the top.
Early digital delays are a tricky business. I think that Peter Gabriel always had one right after his CP70.. |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:08 am Post subject:
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| Peake wrote: | My first bet is that you have some modern substitute in mind for the original memory ICs!
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I haven't checked this yet.
All I need is a DRAM chip. I guess if such small ones aren't available anymore, it will work to just use a small fraction of a bigger one.
| Quote: |
One interesting thing about the 2 is the variable feedback point, and that it can move through its gradations automatically if you wish. And the interaction between the Repeat (guessing at the switch name) plus LFO modulation- IIRC, the LFO sweeps the delay downward like a chorus etc. but when it reaches the bottom of its cycle, it samples and then sweeps the pitch up until it reaches the top.
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Interesting. So probably they didn'z only modulate the clock, but manipulated the adress range, too. I wonder if the latter is as glitch-free as the former.
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Loss Angeles
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject:
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| jhaible wrote: | I haven't checked this yet.
All I need is a DRAM chip. I guess if such small ones aren't available anymore, it will work to just use a small fraction of a bigger one. |
Take a look at the DL2 schemos, if that is the model you'd be interested in (all of the ones after that are just basic delays). NOT simple... And doesn't it have a discrete ADC/DAC? I haven't checked but that's what I've heard. There are large quantities of small memory chips, and the sixteen taps for the variable feedback point are likely hardware (I know that people do this in software now, but I don't think that the DL has that kind of latency).
| Quote: | | Interesting. So probably they didn'z only modulate the clock, but manipulated the adress range, too. I wonder if the latter is as glitch-free as the former. |
The DL2 is a great piece, if you don't mind the short delays and that it doesn't really do good (or at least incredible, full of character) chorus and flanging. It's best at special effects, making mono signals into true stereo, doing stereo spread manipulations (continuously-variable input and output phase control).
They don't go for much more than $100.00 these days. I don't know if a kit would be of benefit. It's your call. If I had the opportunity, I'd have at least two more in my setup, but I'm much wierder than the rest of you.  |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject:
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| Peake wrote: | | jhaible wrote: | I haven't checked this yet.
All I need is a DRAM chip. I guess if such small ones aren't available anymore, it will work to just use a small fraction of a bigger one. |
Take a look at the DL2 schemos, if that is the model you'd be interested in (all of the ones after that are just basic delays). NOT simple... And doesn't it have a discrete ADC/DAC? I haven't checked but that's what I've heard. There are large quantities of small memory chips, and the sixteen taps for the variable feedback point are likely hardware (I know that people do this in software now, but I don't think that the DL has that kind of latency).
| Quote: | | Interesting. So probably they didn'z only modulate the clock, but manipulated the adress range, too. I wonder if the latter is as glitch-free as the former. |
The DL2 is a great piece, if you don't mind the short delays and that it doesn't really do good (or at least incredible, full of character) chorus and flanging. It's best at special effects, making mono signals into true stereo, doing stereo spread manipulations (continuously-variable input and output phase control).
They don't go for much more than $100.00 these days. I don't know if a kit would be of benefit. It's your call. If I had the opportunity, I'd have at least two more in my setup, but I'm much wierder than the rest of you. |
This sounds interesting. I guess I have to go shopping for a DL2 if they are so cheap.
What I had in mind when I stated the thread was something slightly different: Deltalab is famous for the Delta Modulation ADC / DAC that is indeed discrete, and for which they have filed many patents. For a straight delay, you just have to hook up a 1-bit organized DRAM and adress counter. Which has meant _several_ DRAM chips back then, simply because they didn't come in Megabit size, I suppose. Which, OTOH, opens the door for making creative use of the taps between them, especially as the 1-bit DAC is extremely easy to duplicate or triple or ...
Just guessing here - I don't have a DL2 schemo. Would be interesting to look at, indeed!
But I disgress. My focus so far was just on the special ADC / DAC process. It's very clean on strong signals without fast transients, and quite "open" and wide-band, too. (Compared to BBDs, that is.) But it has an inherent slew-limiting (which the various patents tried to reduce), so fast and strong transients tend to overload where a continuous signal of the same level wouldn't.
That's what I meant: Is that kind of sound still in demand,to make it worth building an echo, a flanger, a chorus, a Dim D, you name it, around it.
But what you describe about he DL2 sounds a lot more interesting that that. (I only have experience with an ADM1020, and with a DIY circuit based on an old ELRAD article, which in retrospect obviously was a clone of theat deltalab concept.)
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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ericcoleridge
Joined: Jan 16, 2007
Posts: 889
Location: NYC
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:32 pm Post subject:
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I bought a DL-1 or DL-2 (not an effectron, but an earlier model--with many knobs/controls) a year ago online.. I wanted a voltage controlled delay with some additional control/modulation routings. This deltalab looked old, fairly complex, and well made, so I figured it was a hi end product when it was new.
I believe the CV was for the modulation VCO, and didn't really control the delay time however. But it had some other control inputs, including a "hold" trigger that would hold and repeat your phrase. I think this model had up to 512ms delay time (which was fine; I never use anything longer).
The DL sounded fantastic to me and reminded me very much of the early digital modulated-delays used on many Joy Division recordings (sounds very spooky and demented on strings, vocals, etc).
I brought it to a live performance, for processing a vocal mic, and unfortunately left it at the venue (just a few months ago).
It turned out that it was SUPER noisey when used with the PA/mixing console, and the sound person pretty much refused to use it in my signal chain. I didn't blame him really, it was ridiculous. i was disappointed though, because the delay sound was pretty amazing. He set it aside, and I forgot to grab it before I left.
I guess I just didn't notice this noise level, messing around with it at home. It had attentuation on both the input and output stage, and I could usually get the right level--but I couldn't come close that night at the venue.
One other thing, I remember I opened this DL-1/2 to compare the circuits with a Bel Delay Line/Flanger I have-- and I could have swore I remember them both, the DL and the Bel, using multiple TDA1024 BBDs. |
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
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Location: Loss Angeles
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject:
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| Oh, if you're going for using the ADC/DAC technology in a "new" delay line, that would be interesting. I'd like to hear how that turns out. And yes, if you've only heard the Effectrons etc., I recommend that you search out a DL2 because it's packed with weirdness. If you wanted to build them, I'd be interested in that as well. |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject:
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| Peake wrote: | | Oh, if you're going for using the ADC/DAC technology in a "new" delay line, that would be interesting. I'd like to hear how that turns out. And yes, if you've only heard the Effectrons etc., I recommend that you search out a DL2 because it's packed with weirdness. If you wanted to build them, I'd be interested in that as well. |
If you know one for sale, in the price range you mentioned above, or up to twice as much, I'd be interested to buy one blind, and play around with it.
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:51 pm Post subject:
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OTOH, if noise isn't a problem, and multi-tapped delay weirdness is welcome, I could make a PCB board with a "BBD farm", that can be fitted with a minimum of one, and up to, say, four (or eight?) MN3005 chips, and a lot of pots for all kinds of mixing and feedback loops ...
(Or maybe better using the 5V BL chips instead.)
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:49 pm Post subject:
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| I've always wanted a BBD delay with 2 seconds or more at full bandwidth. If you can synch several 3005s to do so, I say go for it. |
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
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Location: Loss Angeles
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:56 pm Post subject:
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| jhaible wrote: | | If you know one for sale, in the price range you mentioned above, or up to twice as much, I'd be interested to buy one blind, and play around with it. |
Try searching the usenet groups rec.audio.pro and and the marketplace group, I don't remember the name. A straight Google search might help as well...good luck, and let us know. |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject:
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| Peake wrote: | | I've always wanted a BBD delay with 2 seconds or more at full bandwidth. If you can synch several 3005s to do so, I say go for it. |
The clock driver for this would look impressive, but it'd be doable.
Signal quality after twelve 4096-stage BBDs would be very poor.
Bandwidth would suffer from the BBD's own rolloff, even when the clock and filters were chosen for full audio range.
No - a "BBD farm" would rather be something to "destroy" sound (in a hopefully pleasant way).
OTOH, there isn't much in that respect that cannot be done with a Dynacord SRS-56, and they are cheap here in Europe! 
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
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Location: Loss Angeles
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject:
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| jhaible wrote: | | No - a "BBD farm" would rather be something to "destroy" sound (in a hopefully pleasant way). |
That sounds good too! It should be easy with the new BBD ICs. |
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gavgomad
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 69
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:51 pm Post subject:
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Just an idea.... Back on the Deltalab end of things....
We've been chatting about Dim-Ds etc, and from what I gather about the Deltalab technology, there is a nice inherently "in-between" quality vs. DSP digital and vs. BBDs....
That being said, how difficult would it be to do a stereo Deltalab style module which has a few different modes, and you can adjust (using CVs) your overall delay time, depth etc... -- A stereo "Dim-D" style chorus, a stereo flange effect, a slightly more conventional chorus mode, a Ping-Pong delay, and then a series of dual mono modes - simple delays, chorus and flange....
I'm thinking in doing this it's just duplicating some of the mode switches on the Deltalabs I've seen around the Net (chorus, flange, short delay, long delay) and just adding specialized stereo modes and a certain degree of independent mono control....
Is this just too sick an idea to pull off? Just an idea - only JH knows the answer, as his toil is worth gold to the rest of us! ;-P
I know that such a beast would be a great utility module in my rig....
Gav. |
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germaniac
Joined: Aug 04, 2006
Posts: 200
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject:
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| jhaible wrote: | | Peake wrote: | | I've always wanted a BBD delay with 2 seconds or more at full bandwidth. If you can synch several 3005s to do so, I say go for it. |
The clock driver for this would look impressive, but it'd be doable.
Signal quality after twelve 4096-stage BBDs would be very poor.
Bandwidth would suffer from the BBD's own rolloff, even when the clock and filters were chosen for full audio range. |
Hey JH, are you familiar with parallel multiplexing of BBDs? It allows for either twice the sample resolution or twice the delay time (depending on how you look at it) without running BBDs in series and increasing noise. . . .
Also, you mentioned multi-tapping delays and I wonder if you've ever toyed with the MN3011 six-tap BBD? I'd be happy to donate a couple of those if you ever wanted to experiment.
Regards,
Joe |
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haima
Joined: Jul 25, 2008
Posts: 40
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:02 am Post subject:
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just want to say i have two deltalab effectron delays and they are most excellent!
i really like the sound, they sit somewhere between a BBD and modern PCM digital... smooth delay time changes AND they have voltage control 
i once saw a deltalab reverb or room simulator in the window of a pawn shop - and when i went back it was gone! has anyone heard one of these? i think it had a brown case...
haima |
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ringer
Joined: Feb 20, 2007
Posts: 49
Location: montreal
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:25 am Post subject:
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Hi Juergen.
If you are interested in a BBD Farm, take a look at these schematics, words can not justify the creativity. Only 3 exist. I am sure some parts of the circuit are upgradeable, but the functions and flow are outstanding.
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/YNyJSOCzwlrF1_vGYyAZt10_ULaB0vpc7goLUbc4E4T827rlGTaNsQSu0ZzXJKACjtpxzRP40Ge1Yst8ZEawXElLT5Jl7MM/Audities%20Foundation/FILE0001.jpg
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/YNyJSBAFV_7F1_vGFV_LBCCu7G6ys5kbFNRSeJaZ3DR6xoimNrgtAbNP-HeavkUpeZx-asnaiXcGqJ96qY0vcnLO1utqps8/Audities%20Foundation/FILE0002.jpg
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/YNyJSH2G2PnF1_vGk_IYh1PPNRDKHGgUWj5117l4SuWWCantmT06SlTEzFj-Z_kggDAhQTi4v1bUgFGKn-eTTfg-sEnHvpk/Audities%20Foundation/FILE0003.jpg
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/YNyJSNsJiLbF1_vGO8KODIQ6PzizZTuteXpJ3gA3le_Iar5ZeqZp2pE_TbwZBpr1lq8YqXYeb6A8r9mfRBVNLjDdhSJz8go/Audities%20Foundation/FILE0004.jpg
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/UM6JSBea38rEgFwKpI2D7Nfop95oQbRSl4RIYXVolzhe_gLPqLN8a7AeXv0O9x9W67nbiPW1CYTsV3FiCnUhwVw11VDqHio/Audities%20Foundation/FILE0005.jpg
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/UM6JSPJMp-_EgFwK0VuCIaroQHhDGgtxB4NDmreVnPxvDx1vTfAeID7T54HDtsgcPxAXIAwd2-ajkx_1N7wJVxPCNXJqAQ0/Audities%20Foundation/FILE0006.jpg
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/UM6JSHh-3frEgFwKxOgaCLE4r1OUYfTGu4LMeR6OODegm3c-ruUuV7Va_FvIMQDGOjO8TFru4gNWDZZfmvbwlX75JXF25rQ/Audities%20Foundation/FILE0007.jpg
http://launch.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/buchla_modular/photos/view/5cea?b=28
http://launch.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/buchla_modular/photos/view/5cea?b=32
http://launch.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/buchla_modular/photos/view/5cea?b=32
http://launch.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/buchla_modular/photos/view/5cea?b=36
http://launch.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/buchla_modular/photos/view/5cea?b=16
Adding some of the DL-2 features would be nice add-ons.
Adding feedback insert points would be great, one for each tap and a global one would be awesome, if possible. It's a One Bit Sigma Delta delay line I believe.
On the internal board #2 at the bottom left corner, you see four 16 pin ic holders, these are for the A B C D Preset Summed outputs on the middle right of the front panel, which correspond to the bottom left part of the schematic B 2880-1C. I would suggest using a 16 pin edge connector like the one on the model 208 and have a small preset pcb, for one to solder his own preset mixer patches, instead having to dismount the module and change resistor values.
Adding an extra fixed 1v/oct input with option for 1.2v/oct would be nice.
Making the delay time longer will help for the hold repeat part of the circuit.
And last but not least, a way of addressing the start and end points of the hold repeat mode, much like the Akai 612 sampler, with potentiometers and cv.
With proper permission, I am sure Buchla would agree.
Regards,
Ringer |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:39 am Post subject:
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"document you requested could not be found."
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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ringer
Joined: Feb 20, 2007
Posts: 49
Location: montreal
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:33 pm Post subject:
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Hi Juergen,
Please join the yahoo Buchla group and use the links from the post to access them. If you have problems, please pm me and I will send them to you personally.
Regards,
Ringer |
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verbos
Joined: May 09, 2007
Posts: 15
Location: new york
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject:
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| ringer wrote: | Hi Juergen.
If you are interested in a BBD Farm, take a look at these schematics, words can not justify the creativity. Only 3 exist. I am sure some parts of the circuit are upgradeable, but the functions and flow are outstanding. |
The Buchla 288, and the 277 for that matter, do not contain any BBDs. They are digital delays based on the same kind of Sigma Delta one bit conversion as the Delta labs stuff. Instead of RAMs, Don used serial shift registers. The clock steps along the data and there are several taps out of the chain, with converters for each one.
I have planned to make a clone of these modules, but with RAMs, using the Deltalab addressing circuit and everything else Buchla's.
could be cool.
Mark |
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suitandtieguy
Joined: Feb 05, 2007
Posts: 29
Location: Chillicothe IL USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:13 am Post subject:
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why not do something more like the Echotron but with voltage control of the clock oscillator?
there's a _lot_ of BBD delays out there but no one is doing primitive digitalk delay with VC like the Digitech RDS stuff. |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:21 am Post subject:
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| suitandtieguy wrote: | why not do something more like the Echotron but with voltage control of the clock oscillator?
there's a _lot_ of BBD delays out there but no one is doing primitive digitalk delay with VC like the Digitech RDS stuff. |
I'm pretty sure my Echotron *has* a CV clock, as it allows LFO modulation.
And, many years ago, I've built a Deltamodulation-Delay with voltage controlled clock as well. (Based on the Elrad Delta-Delay, but substituting the digitally controlled clock with a HF-VCO.)
What kind of RAM would one use for something like this today?
I guess the small DRAMs that were used _then_ are long obsolete ...
Are there contemporary RAMs that can be adressed as easily?
JH.
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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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