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/mr
Joined: Aug 05, 2007
Posts: 223
Location: Elektron City, Sweden
Audio files: 1
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 Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 12:04 pm Post subject:
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| zthee wrote: | | jhaible wrote: | Ahh, and so you want channel LEDs, also!  |
Yes! Channel LEDs would be great! |
Channel LEDs is a must!
It's so simple when the envelope follower signals are already there.
Regarding slider pots for the channels -
I expect that short sliders would be sufficient, and even more practical than long ones. It's not a critical setting and doesn't need much precision. It's not about tuning an oscillator over 7 octaves, it's about setting the volume of one band out of 20. Shorter sliders would more easily allow the vocoder player(!) move several sliders at once with different fingers. |
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zthee
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 414
Location: Stockholm
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/mr
Joined: Aug 05, 2007
Posts: 223
Location: Elektron City, Sweden
Audio files: 1
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 2:23 pm Post subject:
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Looks good, zthee! 
(But I'd move the logo up to the top, to reach the sliders with my hands still resting luxuriously)
I'm planning to use either 30 or 45 mm sliders, depending on space. Wouldn't expect 30 mm to be too short either.
| jhaible wrote: | I had the chance to play with a Sennheiser twice.
...
And then, Sennheiser paired this super-envelope-detection with a cheap switched modulator for VCAs.  And the had no slew control or freeze feature. |
What is it that makes the switching VCAs a bad solution?
I always thought it was a clever shortcut when needing VCAs en masse for band-limited signals.
Low dynamics due to inferior precision when switching pulses get short, or what? |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 2:48 pm Post subject:
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| /mr wrote: | Looks good, zthee!
(But I'd move the logo up to the top, to reach the sliders with my hands still resting luxuriously)
I'm planning to use either 30 or 45 mm sliders, depending on space. Wouldn't expect 30 mm to be too short either.
| jhaible wrote: | I had the chance to play with a Sennheiser twice.
...
And then, Sennheiser paired this super-envelope-detection with a cheap switched modulator for VCAs. And the had no slew control or freeze feature. |
What is it that makes the switching VCAs a bad solution?
I always thought it was a clever shortcut when needing VCAs en masse for band-limited signals.
Low dynamics due to inferior precision when switching pulses get short, or what? |
I didn't even say it was bad - just cheap aka inexpensive, especially compared with the luxury that's in there everywhere else. But I suspect the dynamic range is limited, too, becuase of charge injection, etc. Just guessing.
BTW: I started a web page for the Living Vocoder, which now makes the project more or less official:
http://www.jhaible.de/vocoder/living_vocoder.html
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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zthee
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 414
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 5:51 pm Post subject:
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| /mr wrote: | | (But I'd move the logo up to the top, to reach the sliders with my hands still resting luxuriously)? |
Well, it's 8 cm from the arm rest to the sliders, and I'd figure an average man would be able to both rest his arms and work the sliders with that distance
Awesome! I guess you know by now how much I want to build this! I think this is one of the greatest DIY projects ever! I wish more people would jump on it! I'm gonna build it as soon as it's ready!
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 4:32 am Post subject:
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PCB design progress:
http://www.jhaible.de/vocoder/working_on_vocoder.jpg
That's the core, the 20 complete channels.
All the rest will have to fit into the space around this.
Which means that I'll probably use a separate power supply.
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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magnus
Joined: Aug 12, 2007
Posts: 8
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 4:36 am Post subject:
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| zthee wrote: | | jhaible wrote: | | Ahh, and so you want channel LEDs, also! |
Yes! Channel LEDs would be great! And when looking at your teaser layout, it seems like you're adding LEDs for all the switches too? That would be a great option! |
I would not mind putting a 20 channel LED bar display on top of that, it would help to indicate what is going on. Default thought would be to display the analyser detection, but it might be good if detection of carrier or sum could be provided. The original EMS 5000 has a display output.
In that respect the channel LEDs is just the poor mans option, but still serve to indicate clipping so you know where you need to pull back. The direct mapping LED-slider is important in that respect as you can react instinctively.
Having a line of connectors in parallel with the matrix allows for patching in additional CV processing at need. |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 4:46 am Post subject:
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Welcome Magnus!
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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magnus
Joined: Aug 12, 2007
Posts: 8
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 5:16 am Post subject:
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| jhaible wrote: | Welcome Magnus!
JH. |
Many thanks. I have been monitoring this project at a distance...
I just realized that including a frequency shifter would be the simple matter of adding a FS-1A into the box. If Zthee would consider including that to his panel design...
I was not completely clear if you included the slew-rate/freeze functionality. I only assumed you did.
The one thing I like about the ETI Powertran vocoder is it's openness. If is fairly easy to modify it to include 2x14 jacks for signals for instance. If I only bother to finally get that input board working (don't ask!) on my otherwise complete Powertran. Anyway, I like to see output for voice/unvoice, input/output for unvoiced signal such that one may replace it or process it. Things like that. CV input for slew-rate should be natural.
The above thing is about letting there be easy access to the signal path. |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 6:51 am Post subject:
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| magnus wrote: | | jhaible wrote: | Welcome Magnus!
JH. |
Many thanks. I have been monitoring this project at a distance...
I just realized that including a frequency shifter would be the simple matter of adding a FS-1A into the box. If Zthee would consider including that to his panel design...
I was not completely clear if you included the slew-rate/freeze functionality. I only assumed you did.
The one thing I like about the ETI Powertran vocoder is it's openness. If is fairly easy to modify it to include 2x14 jacks for signals for instance. If I only bother to finally get that input board working (don't ask!) on my otherwise complete Powertran. Anyway, I like to see output for voice/unvoice, input/output for unvoiced signal such that one may replace it or process it. Things like that. CV input for slew-rate should be natural.
The above thing is about letting there be easy access to the signal path. |
Slew / Freeze will be included.
Jacks and/or Matrix patch panel, channel potentiometers as you like.
There will be connectors on the PCB where you can simply put a Jumper (well, 20 jumpers), if you don't want any of it at all. (And for me it's important that I can test the board that way, without connecting too much.)
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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zthee
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 414
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 4:09 pm Post subject:
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Hello Magnus!
| magnus wrote: | | I just realized that including a frequency shifter would be the simple matter of adding a FS-1A into the box. If Zthee would consider including that to his panel design... |
Yeah, I was thinking about that as well. Though the thought of building yet another FS-1A kinda scares me.. but I've built it once, so I guess I could do it again!
The problem is I'd like to be able to swtich between shifting either the carrier or the signal. And I'm running out of panel space..
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magnus
Joined: Aug 12, 2007
Posts: 8
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 4:55 pm Post subject:
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| zthee wrote: | Hello Magnus!
Yeah, I was thinking about that as well. Though the thought of building yet another FS-1A kinda scares me.. but I've built it once, so I guess I could do it again!
The problem is I'd like to be able to swtich between shifting either the carrier or the signal. And I'm running out of panel space.. |
A problem that could be solved over several cups of tea, as you very well know. The bottom cushion is not negotiable, it *needs* to be there.
After soldering up this Vocoder, doing another FS-1A should come in a breeze. Wasn't that hard really. |
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zthee
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Posts: 414
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 3:31 am Post subject:
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Yeah, I know, it takes some thinking and it's done!
Though I'm sad to report I removed the cushion last night  In favour of making a rack mount panel, but you could always mount the panel in a box with a cushion
I've done some more thinking, and is feature creeping this panel now.. How about hardwiring the FS-1A to the signal input, and a triple chorus to the carrier input?
http://www.thehumancomparator.net/tmp/haible-vocoder3.png
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/mr
Joined: Aug 05, 2007
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Location: Elektron City, Sweden
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 4:00 pm Post subject:
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It's easy to get stuck in feature land and start cramming everything in...
but a separate chorus and a separate frequency shifter is more useful.
Regarding the panel design - why a VU meter for the output and none for the inputs? They are always critical when it comes to vocoders. A 3-position switch could come in handy if you are running out of space.  |
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zthee
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 414
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 11:22 pm Post subject:
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I actually kinda like the idea with the built in chorus and frequency shifter - - I've added a switch for feeding the vocoder output back into the frequency shifter, so I can "barberpole" the entire signal. Might be useful?
Monitoring the 3 different signals is not a bad idea!
I want to build this so bad now! 
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 6:58 am Post subject:
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Capacitors
I have reduced the expensive, 1% capacitors to two values: 10nF and 47nF.
That way, you can buy them in larger quanities and they won't be that expensive.
You will need about 150 pieces of 47nF 1% and 150 pieces of 10nF 1%.
I just placed my order at www.rs-components.de , order number 169-326 and 166-6421 (These are bags of 10 pieces.)
I suggest you wait a few days before you place any orders, so I can check the form factor, if it really fits into the PCB.
Selling PCBs will be months away (asuming the project won't be dumped in case it's a total failure, which can happen), so there is no hurry.
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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zthee
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 1:29 pm Post subject:
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1% Capacitors arrived.
http://www.jhaible.de/vocoder/cap_bag_and_block_diagram.jpg
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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TekniK
Joined: Aug 10, 2008
Posts: 1059
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 1:46 pm Post subject:
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and we get the proof and all |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 3:07 am Post subject:
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| TekniK wrote: |
and we get the proof and all |
Yes. I guess I have to make every tiny step public in order to prevent myself from stepping back.
I really hope this one will be a success.
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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TekniK
Joined: Aug 10, 2008
Posts: 1059
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 3:38 am Post subject:
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| jhaible wrote: | Yes. I guess I have to make every tiny step public in order to prevent myself from stepping back.
I really hope this one will be a success.
JH. |
yes,i wander where you find all the time spend on these fine circuitry designs.
Am pretty sure it will be a success. |
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StephenGiles
Joined: Apr 17, 2006
Posts: 507
Location: England
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 6:43 am Post subject:
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| I'm sure one of the tricks is to have a very nice wife who doesn't want you to just sit in front of the television with her every evening! |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 6:51 am Post subject:
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| StephenGiles wrote: | | I'm sure one of the tricks is to have a very nice wife who doesn't want you to just sit in front of the television with her every evening! |
Well, in my case it also was saying goodbye to a full-time job in the automation industry (not quitting, but changing to part-time), and making my former hobby a real business.
Jh.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Sat May 29, 2010 9:39 am Post subject:
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Update:
Finished Layout for these parts:
Speech Mic amplifier (SSM2019-based)
Speech Tone Control (inspired by ETI vocoder)
Opto-electronic compressor for Speech
Attack Detector for Slew (inspired by EMS2000)
Voiced/Unvoiced Detector (inspired by Sennheiser and EMS5000)
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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mono-poly
Joined: Jul 07, 2004
Posts: 937
Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
Audio files: 2
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| Posted: Sun May 30, 2010 2:49 am Post subject:
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| zthee wrote: | Yeah, I know, it takes some thinking and it's done!
Though I'm sad to report I removed the cushion last night In favour of making a rack mount panel, but you could always mount the panel in a box with a cushion
I've done some more thinking, and is feature creeping this panel now.. How about hardwiring the FS-1A to the signal input, and a triple chorus to the carrier input?
http://www.thehumancomparator.net/tmp/haible-vocoder3.png |
Only thing you should think about is the patch matrix.
A 36x36 is a comon one to get.
Other sizes are very very expensive.
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