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buzzr
Joined: Dec 13, 2007
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 Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:15 am Post subject:
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| trotz wrote: | I agree with Wout. I never abandoned my NM even though the G2 was very tempting but... I don't prefer encoders to pots and there was simply not enough difference between the products.
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Not much difference? I had a Nord Micro Modular and Nord Modular Rack and now I have the G2. The G2 sounds different but my GOD it is king over the other two by a landslide. I got rid of the other two after having a G2 for a few weeks. |
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GovernorSilver
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Tim Kleinert
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| Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:36 am Post subject:
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| jksuperstar wrote: | | And, if I read between the lines, it seems like Wout is hinting at something new, but based on G2 hardware (or technology?)...G3, G2.1, or G2 firmware 2.0? G2_VST? |
Maybe Wout is just making fun of us. 
I don't see a G2 firmware 2.0 at all, because they wouldn't make any profit from it.
A G3 with sampling? At a time when the development of dedicated hardware UI devices for software platforms is progressing rapidly? I don't think so. Not that a hypothetical G3 wouldn't have alot of advantages over eg. a Reaktor+controller setup. But I wonder if Clavia would be smart enough this time to market it accordingly, so people actually realize that and buy it. When I demonstrate the G2 to people, "Whoa, I didn't know it could do that!" is a very common reaction. Go figure. |
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buzzr
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| Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:45 am Post subject:
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I don't want a VST, I don't want a computer anywhere near me. But that's impossible because the G2 is a computer!
They have a piano for Namm. There is no new product. I just talked with someone who knows.
ME  |
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Wout Blommers
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| Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:14 pm Post subject:
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| tim wrote: | | ... When I demonstrate the G2 to people, "Whoa, I didn't know it could do that!" is a very common reaction. Go figure. |
The problem is the retailers can’t explain and therefore not sell a G2…
I would say a new instrument based on the G2 platform. Some smart interface controlling running sequencers and arpeggio’s or something like that…
Anyway I hope for an integrated set up with the G2, something like an add-on.
Wout |
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Wout Blommers
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| Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:16 pm Post subject:
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| buzzr wrote: | | ... They have a piano for Namm. There is no new product. I just talked with someone who knows. |
Oh sorry, but this discussion is going beyond NAMM 2010... Maybe Messe 2011 
The NordPiano is just an in-between release...
Maybe I talked to someone who knows better? 
Wout |
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Tim Kleinert
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| Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:17 pm Post subject:
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| Wout Blommers wrote: | | tim wrote: | | ... When I demonstrate the G2 to people, "Whoa, I didn't know it could do that!" is a very common reaction. Go figure. |
The problem is the retailers can’t explain and therefore not sell a G2… |
Yes, that's a problem too.
If Clavia ever considers to develop something in the modular vein, I think they should present it like Eventide presents their H8000 processors. Meaning: no upfront mentioning of the modularity at all, but rather a big library of great and well-documented (ie. explained!) preset algorithms that cover all bases that such an instrument is capable of covering and thus represent it's totally multifunctional nature. That would mean investing ample time in the algorithm voicing and documentation of the instrument. This a retailer could sell and the average user would buy.
If Clavia is reading this: Folks, I single-handedly pulled off real granular synthesis on the G2, and lots of other stuff too. If you want, I'll develop loads of great preset algorithms for a G3, FOR FREE! My only demand is that you actually come up with a G3! |
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trotz
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| Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:18 pm Post subject:
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| buzzr wrote: | | trotz wrote: | I agree with Wout. I never abandoned my NM even though the G2 was very tempting but... I don't prefer encoders to pots and there was simply not enough difference between the products.
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Not much difference? I had a Nord Micro Modular and Nord Modular Rack and now I have the G2. The G2 sounds different but my GOD it is king over the other two by a landslide. I got rid of the other two after having a G2 for a few weeks. |
Hey! They are both virtual analog modular synths with a software editor, no samples, and made by Clavia! That's close enough for me.
I would be stupid not to recognize that they are different products. I kept my NM and I feel happy about it. Now I am spending my time with Kyma which offers a different perspective on sound creation. That's my idea of "enough difference" but I won't try to impose it on anyone. 
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buzzr
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| Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:49 pm Post subject:
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Yes, everyone has different preferences. I had a Kyma Pacarana for a month and returned it. It was a nice system but I could do everything I needed, including sampling with the G2.
I was looking at hardware modulars for a while and came to the conclusion that would have been a big mistake.. |
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Roland Kuit
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:15 pm Post subject:
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hehe tim,
and wout, i like the idea of 1 huge controller, something like the monome.
but then with knobs and leds. |
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3phase
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:02 pm Post subject:
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| tim wrote: | | But I wonder if Clavia would be smart enough this time to market it accordingly, so people actually realize that and buy it. When I demonstrate the G2 to people, "Whoa, I didn't know it could do that!" is a very common reaction. Go figure. |
That actually shows how smart Clavia actually is... there is a bit more under the hood of he G2 that meets the eye in the first place..
It was also a pretty smart move to seperate from the trash electronic music biz and concentrate to be seen more on classic stages.. giving the company more credebilty in the classic instrument builders scene.. The Gibson of Sweden
Such a name can last much longer than being big for fancy techno toys..its classical instruments.. however.. i am sure modular synths will be classical instruments aswell one day...
Being smart in the development philosphy, like clavia, dont necessarily means that you do all your things similar smart or are free of mistakes..
See apple versions for the Nm1 .which came much too late..
There are too many musicans that use apple computers.. in relation probably more than in any other depatment.. in the music scene PC/Mac relation can be easily 50%.
There are companys where the smartness is only in the sales department and the products, even when beeing hightech, sometimes appear to be designed by retards..
In the end of the day i prever the smartness in the instrument over smartness in the sales brochure...
However they did some mistakes with the G2 that probably have seriously damaged the sale figure.. IMO
1) No patch compatibility with the NM1...
Big mistake because it made users, intersted in switching to the G2, dependend to theire old NM1.. which on first sight dont has much less under the hood than the G2,,except the nice display/encoder thing...and midi out
And new users had a very limited sound lib in the beginning,,
So scaring away new and old users with this move probably reduced the sales possebility.
When i worked with Mat G ..the maker of G2ools on the conversion tables for the patch converter i came along certain things that make 100% patch compatibility impossible.. but just a few little things.. And after mailing with clavia most of them wasnt intended. Theire plan, as i was told, was that the units sound identical. So if they would have had the patch conversion in mind from the start they even could have ironed out some little problems like the 16 bit delay lines in an early stage of development..
beside these "bugs" and maybe 3-5 missing legacy modules a 100% patchconversion would have been easily possible...
And its very likely that the little differences are just what gave the G2 the name not to sound as good as the old one... which is actually true on patches that run into theese little limitations..
So if patchcompatibility would have been on the scedule the units probaly would really sound the same..
I think that was the single one big mistake in the G2... and if they ever do a G3 i highly recomend to give it the ability to run all nord modular patches.. from nm1 to G2...
With as good or better sound.. this will pay of in the sales figure..especially in the long term sales figure where old time users can free some space and have it all in one machine than.. and new users that can access really everything achieved sofar...
2)little mistake... bringing the G2X at a later point.. so people that had one allready had to miss out on that one.. like me for example
3)little design flaw...
going with the small modell to much for the look instead practical design reasons... if they would have had the G2x and g2 released together the big one could have been one for the looks and the small one a practical traveling device...
And that means it have to fit into a bord baggage trolly like the NM1 does..
probably an other reason some old users sticked with the Nm1 ..and a reason the NM1 is still well asked.. a small package with a lot of sound possebilitys.. also the micro modular is still highly recomendd for the reason to be small.
Sadly.. this would have been possible with the G2 aswell... just place the wheels above the keyboard where the extra wheels of the G2x are anyway...
And it would be possible to fit a 3 octave keyboard in a board trolley...
You would need to do the side of the instruments with 3 mm alu plates than as we we have on the jupiter 6 or crumar Bit One..
The width of a 3 octave keybord is allmost the max that fits in a board case..
I like the look of my g2.. its a beauty soemhow from its proportions... so i am not to hard on that mistake.. But each time i travel its a risk if they allow me to take it on board or not.. If i had the option i allways would go for the model that fits in board bagage..
So this could have effected the sales figure negativly in the end...
Anyway, a product like the nord modular is a specialists synth..
There is never such a big market for such units..
So some little mistakes easyli can screw the sales figure..
But I see the popularity of modular synths rising strongly theese days...
So
Maybe clavia was just way to early with theire modular synths ?..
At a time the synth scene was only interested in Jupiters and Prophet 5´s the normal nord was for sure the better seller...
But on tomorows synth market? A G3 that combines the strenght of an easy to transport hardware synth/sampler with an analog sounding polyphon modular synth that has clavias patch precission might be just what is wanted than..
And clavia has all the technology.. they know by now to make things sound more like analog devices...and the concept of the G2 is expandable...
Maybe a handfull of higher inegrated extra modules for the easy patcher but keeping the lowlevel modules we have now in place ...
I think the more academic aproach and the analog simulation aproach can well be combined.. its no contradiction to have certain modules that have more dsp expensiv analog modeling inside side by side with clean digital processing
If they ever do such a unit they will have at least me as a customer |
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Wout Blommers
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:59 pm Post subject:
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Just as as indication Clavia still is interested into the G2 is the fact they promote Roland Kuit's Tutorial on their front page. Nothing to tell...?
After NAMM?
We'll wait...
Wout |
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G2Psy
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:36 pm Post subject:
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Everyone's confidence in Nord continuing the modular synths is admirable, but I just don't see it in the company image and the website. The G2 has been shuffled off to the side like it is an embarrassment. The performance keyboards clearly appeal to those who don't like synth sounds. And to capture those buyers, the entire website sez "no yucky synthesizers with their awful unnatural sounds here". This is the antithesis of what Nord envisioned when the Nord Lead was new.
Would it really hurt to have a keyboard with convincing emulations of organs and pianos on one patch and all the power of the G2 on another? Nord think so. This is clearly a new direction, not just presenting an image for one (albeit major) part of the market. They eradicated synthesized sounds from their products in some 'back to 'vinyl' campaign.
If Nord do develop a G3, I'm frankly not inclined to care. It will be released, partly supported and then shuffled off to the side like it is an embarassment all over again. |
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Roland Kuit
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:55 pm Post subject:
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no no no psy....what tim stated before makes sense. a lot! the lack of knowledge etc was the bummer on the sales. the problem is how to shape and expose the possibilitys of the g2/or g3. and don't forget the nm was a revolution back then. i come from analogue equipment, but this was soooo tempting and rewarding. the g2 was a natural follow up. even without the pch exchange. they're still different instruments. use your ears.
so will a g3 be. if it comes....
and i will support the thing for free too with kickn ass pch |
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G2Psy
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:20 pm Post subject:
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Hi Roland! I agree with you. You and I love the modular synths. I'm talking about Nord branding. Nord themselves seem to disown the modulars for the sake of attracting performance players. I believe its a mistake on their part.
Please read the post in the spirit is was intended.
Cheers,
B |
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GovernorSilver
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:01 am Post subject:
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| G2Psy wrote: | | Everyone's confidence in Nord continuing the modular synths is admirable, |
The confidence is due in large part to Wout Blommer's annual teasing of the faithful. Example:
| Quote: | Oh sorry, but this discussion is going beyond NAMM 2010... Maybe Messe 2011
The NordPiano is just an in-between release...
Maybe I talked to someone who knows better? Wink
Wout |
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Tim Kleinert
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:50 pm Post subject:
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I want to tell you a little story.
I introduced myself to Tomas Johansson last Messe. We babbled about the G2 and the possible future of the Clavia modular platform. He said that the company had invested alot of work/time/money in this and it would be a loss to just drop it completely. But no idea what and when. He naturally made a point of being as vague as possible. But it wasn't a definitive "no".
However. So I told him about my low-level G2 algorithms -the sampling/granular/elastic-audio stuff and other things too. I said I would be glad to be of help doing beta-testing and algorithm design for a future modular product. He appeared to be very interested, gave me his card and told me to contact him. I did. I never got a response. He probably thought I was just some kind of jerk. Bah, whatever.  So now I don't pay attention to anyone's "through the grapevine" statements pertaining products by Clavia. Their mode of communication has been too non-commital, enigmatic and weird (I could even consider it rude in my case) to be substantial.
So Wout can tease as much as he wants . I'll believe in a G3 when I can actually touch it, not before. Messe/NAMM-news won't be enough for me. (The physical modelling modules were publicly presented at Messe, but never saw the light.)
cheers,
tim
(going back to patching his G2, there's still alot more to achieve here) |
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Wout Blommers
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:27 pm Post subject:
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I never said there will be a G3
They just didn't threw away the G2 platform!
That's what you confirmed here, didn't you?
Could be a G3, but also a P12 or a ZW545, who knows? Even a G4 is possible
They have a lot of idea's, but if they are to be realized...
Wout |
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G2Psy
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:48 pm Post subject:
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| Wout Blommers wrote: |
They just didn't threw away the G2 platform!
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Which part of the website indicates this? This is just like the Lead 3. OK, the encoders apparently went out of production - so, reengineer a new model with currently manufactured encoders. But Nord drop it completely. There's more than just hard to get encoders behind the G2 and Lead 3 being discontinued.
Nord need to understand that in disenfranchising the modular synth people, those people won't necessarily forgive and forget. Not me at least I will continue to use the G2 until it dies. After that, I'll be using a Casio with a whopping 128 preset sounds.
Cheers,
B |
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Tim Kleinert
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:55 pm Post subject:
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| Wout Blommers wrote: | I never said there will be a G3
They just didn't threw away the G2 platform! |
Officially, from the outside, the G2 is discontinued. Discontinued, abandoned, thrown away -these are just different words meaning the same thing for a user waiting for bugfixes that will never happen. What they think or do with the G2 platform behind the company doors is neither my business nor do I care much if it doesn't result in anything I can buy and use. Rather than "throwing away", they can make any remaining G2 into a cake stand as far as I'm concerned. After all, that's a "platform" too.
| Quote: | | That's what you confirmed here, didn't you? |
No, on the contrary. I reported what I had been told, only to put it into perspective. I wouldn't dare confirm anything said by Clavia. That's exactly my point. |
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Roland Kuit
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:01 pm Post subject:
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| tim, i pm u |
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Antimon
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:58 pm Post subject:
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| tim wrote: | | (The physical modelling modules were publicly presented at Messe, but never saw the light.) |
/Stefan
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Tim Kleinert
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:28 am Post subject:
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I don't mean to sound bitchy here. I'm a loyal Clavia fan and user since over 10 years -NL2, NL3, NE, G2, G2X, I own (or have owned) them all. If I had the spare cash right now, a Stage and Wave would come in my door instantly. I'm on very good terms with the Swiss distributor and have equipped the jazz/pop (and lately even the classical) music departement at the university of the arts in Zürich with Clavia gear, with the effect that many students and collegues have gone out and bought Clavia too. Clavia doesn't pay me for this. It's just that, overall, I think it is the best IMHO.
My only point is that I don't pay attention to any 'internet noise' (or Wout teasing ) pertaining a possible G2 successor anymore. If it happens, great. If a G3 (or similar) truly comes along, rest assured that I'll get my hands on the first one that comes into Switzerland! Hehe!  If not, so what. I treat my G2Xs with alot of care (no scratches or wear on them after 6 years of live use) and intend to use them for a loooong time. There's still so much in them. I've just got DIY arpeggiators nailed, and have more stuff on the workbench.
cheers,
t |
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mother misty
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:45 am Post subject:
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I actually thought that pic of the piano was a joke, but it seems like it's... not?!
That looks so cheap and... wrong! I hope next time clavia puts out a product more then 2 employees work on it.
cheers,
misty
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GovernorSilver
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:10 pm Post subject:
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| Wout Blommers wrote: | I never said there will be a G3
They just didn't threw away the G2 platform!
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If you were to reveal to me that they are using some version of the G2 platform at the Clavia facilities to develop and test code for the Nord Wave, Nord State, and other Nord synth products, it would not surprise me at all.
Korg was using the OASYS platform for years for internal synth development/testing before they released it as a PCI card product, then as a line of keyboards. My understanding is the OASYS went out of production but I'm sure they're still using it or some version of it to develop Kaoscillator products and other synth products.
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