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Monstruarte
Joined: Sep 25, 2009
Posts: 73
Location: Argentina
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 Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:20 pm Post subject:
Sound lab gate in problem |
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Hello friends. I think I have a problem with the Sound Lab, specifically at the entrance gate in.
Some time ago I finished the 16-step Sequencer, after solving a few problems with the help of the forum, and especially Bruce. we conclude that the problem of gates was not in the Sequencer, was in the sound lab.
This is the post of the Sequencer:
http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-39860.html&postorder=asc
final conclusions on the issues forced me to open this post a little more specific.
I really can not find something specific on the gate in of the sound sound lab in the web of ray.
I feel like a castaway.
I would appreciate any help.
Thank you very much. |
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Monstruarte
Joined: Sep 25, 2009
Posts: 73
Location: Argentina
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| Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:28 pm Post subject:
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The problem would be the following. This comes from the other post.
| Quote: | The gate jack of the sequencer seems to respond to actuate the gate switches on the steps. when I turn on gate jack mark 12v . when I turn off the gate jack mark 0v.
However, when I connect the plug of the gate in of the sound lab, at the gate out of the Sequencer. the voltage in the gate out jack of the sequencer does not change, this remains at 0v. |
what voltage is supposed to mark the gate in of the sound lab with nothing connected?
This is the lasts post of bruce.
| Quote: | If it works before you plug it into the Soundlab - the problem must be in the Soundlab.
Check the wiring on the Gate input jack for the Soundlab. Is it wired backwards? Is the input Jack shorted to ground?
There is not much other explanation that I can think of... |
Is it wired backwards?: yes
Is the input Jack shorted to ground?: is grounded. |
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Monstruarte
Joined: Sep 25, 2009
Posts: 73
Location: Argentina
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| Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:06 pm Post subject:
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I realized something. The AR REPEAT does not work. I know that only works in Trig'd mode, still does not work.
the AR REPEAT is always repeating itself, it's as if the shutdown does not work.
Maybe this problem is related to the malfunction of the gate in?
maybe the problem is around the IC1 CD40106?
any suggestions?
and do not know where to begin testing.
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Monstruarte
Joined: Sep 25, 2009
Posts: 73
Location: Argentina
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| Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:48 pm Post subject:
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I'll test as recommended by the troubleshooting guide that appears on the website of Ray.
| Quote: | Attack Release Generator
As always, check the associated part values and orientations to ensure they are correct. Disconnect the external gate if you are using the external gate feature. With no external gate connected, S3 (AR Mode switch) set to "Gated" and S1 not pushed you should see +8 to +9 volts (depending on your meter's impedance) between pin 1 of C2 and ground. In this state IC1-A pin 2 should be low. When you press S1, you see about 1.5 volts between C2 pin 1 and ground and IC1-A pin 2 should go high and return low when you release S1. You should see a positive 8V to 9V pulse across R4 whenever you press S1. Set both Attack and Decay to the fully counter-clock-wise position (minimum attack and decay times). When you press S1 the voltage between C3 pin 1 and ground should go to between 8 and 9 volts (IC2-B pin 7 should also go to 8 to 9 volts). When you release S1 the voltage between C3 pin 1 and ground should go to 0 volts (IC2-B pin 7 go to between -8 and -9 volts). You should see the same voltage on pin 1 of R15 as you see on IC2-B pin 7. When IC2-B pin 7 is greater than about +6 volts IC1-C pin 6 should be at 9 volts. Set S3 (AR Mode switch) to Trig'd. Pressing S1 should cause IC1-E pin 10 to go to ground and then almost immediately return to +9V. Pressing S1 should cause IC1-F pin 12 to go to +9 volts and then almost immediately return to ground. Turn R10 a bit clockwise. Pressing S1 should cause IC1-E pin 10 to go to ground and then return to +9V after a delay. Pressing S1 should cause IC1-F pin 12 to go to +9 volts and then return to ground after a short delay. The further clockwise you turn R10 the longer the delay should become. The voltage envelope on IC2-B pin 7 should have an attack curve and a very very short decay curve. The further clockwise you turn R10 the longer the attack curve should become. Advancing R11 clockwise should cause the decay curve to lengthen. Return to a very short attack and decay time setting and set S2 (AR Repeat) to on. You should see a repeating attack decay envelope at IC2-B pin 7. Changing R10 or R11 should cause the envelope to change appropriately.
Some causes for problems include:
* Defective IC1 (will not function) Try a known good one.
* Incorrect values of resistors or capacitors (will not function appropriately or at all)
* Attack and Decay pots mis-wired (inappropriate envelope change with R10 & R11 adjustment)
* S1 not connected or pin 1 not connected to ground (Manual trigger will not work (repeat may work))
* Defective IC2 (will not function) Try a known good one.
* Triple check the panel wiring because if you are missing a ground or power connection on the front panel you could be starving several circuit points of necessary ground or power and the whole unit will be hosed and act very funkily (and not in a good way).
* Diode reversed or shorted (will not function appropriately or at all)
* Check all solder joints re-solder any that look cold (dull and gray instead of shiney). |
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RF
Joined: Mar 23, 2007
Posts: 1502
Location: Northern Minnesota, USA
Audio files: 28
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| Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:57 pm Post subject:
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Hi again 
Check the repeat mode switch.
bruce
_________________
www.sdiy.org/rfeng
"I want to make these sounds that go wooo-wooo-ah-woo-woo.”
(Herb Deutsch to Bob Moog ~1963) |
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Monstruarte
Joined: Sep 25, 2009
Posts: 73
Location: Argentina
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| Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:16 pm Post subject:
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ok, as usual it started badly.
| Quote: | | As always, check the associated part values and orientations to ensure they are correct. |
This is Ok
| Quote: | | Disconnect the external gate if you are using the external gate feature. With no external gate connected, S3 (AR Mode switch) set to "Gated" and S1 not pushed you should see +8 to +9 volts (depending on your meter's impedance) between pin 1 of C2 and ground. |
Here begins the bad. the .001 uf Ceramic Capacitor C2 and ground. mark 1.37v
but not how to distinguish the pin 1 of a ceramic capacitor if is not polarized. if you it's worth, the other pin mark 0v.
| Quote: | | In this state IC1-A pin 2 should be low. |
Maybe too low, as it marks 0v
| Quote: | | When you press S1, you see about 1.5 volts between C2 pin 1 and ground |
1.5v is not enough. when I press S1, pin 1 of C2 brand 0.75V.
| Quote: | | and IC1-A pin 2 should go high and return low when you release S1. |
finally something that works. IC1 A pin2 mark 0v and when I press S1 mark 7.80v
| Quote: | | You should see a positive 8V to 9V pulse across R4 whenever you press S1. |
tears on my face. R4 nothing going on when I press S1. R4 mark 0v.
| Quote: | | Set both Attack and Decay to the fully counter-clock-wise position (minimum attack and decay times). |
Ok
| Quote: | | When you press S1 the voltage between C3 pin 1 and ground should go to between 8 and 9 volts (IC2-B pin 7 should also go to 8 to 9 volts). |
when I press S1, C3 pin1 mark 7.35v and IC2-B pin7 mark 6.68v
| Quote: | | When you release S1 the voltage between C3 pin 1 and ground should go to 0 volts (IC2-B pin 7 go to between -8 and -9 volts) |
when I let S1, C3 pin1 mark 0v that's fine, unfortunately the IC2-B-pin7 mark only -4.29v.
| Quote: | | You should see the same voltage on pin 1 of R15 as you see on IC2-B pin 7. |
this is correct
| Quote: | | When IC2-B pin 7 is greater than about +6 volts IC1-C pin 6 should be at 9 volts. |
Pin 7 of IC2-B mark 6.65v, and pin 6 of IC1-C mark 7.68v. slightly less than 9v but correct.
| Quote: | | Set S3 (AR Mode switch) to Trig'd. Pressing S1 should cause IC1-E pin 10 to go to ground and then almost immediately return to +9V. Pressing S1 should cause IC1-F pin 12 to go to +9 volts and then almost immediately return to ground. |
Yes, but both fail to 9v. they mark 7.68v. may have a low battery.
| Quote: | | Turn R10 a bit clockwise. Pressing S1 should cause IC1-E pin 10 to go to ground and then return to +9V after a delay. Pressing S1 should cause IC1-F pin 12 to go to +9 volts and then return to ground after a short delay. The further clockwise you turn R10 the longer the delay should become. The voltage envelope on IC2-B pin 7 should have an attack curve and a very very short decay curve. The further clockwise you turn R10 the longer the attack curve should become. Advancing R11 clockwise should cause the decay curve to lengthen. |
Ok, less than 9v but ok
| Quote: | | Return to a very short attack and decay time setting and set S2 (AR Repeat) to on. You should see a repeating attack decay envelope at IC2-B pin 7. Changing R10 or R11 should cause the envelope to change appropriately. |
not repeat. S1 pressing the voltage varies only once.
PLEASSSSEEEE HELLPPPPPPP MEEEEE... |
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Monstruarte
Joined: Sep 25, 2009
Posts: 73
Location: Argentina
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:49 am Post subject:
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| I'm a castaway and I just throw a thousand bottles in the sea, I hope someone pick one. |
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Danno Gee Ray
Joined: Sep 25, 2005
Posts: 1351
Location: Telford, PA USA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:58 pm Post subject:
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Please refer to the schematic you posted.
The capacitor in question (C2) is marked on the schematic with pin numbers. Pin 1 is also Pin 1 of the IC1-a chip nearby. Pin 2 of the capscitor is Ground (Zero Volts). If yoiu are reading a low voltage at pin 1 of ther Capacitor, I would recommend checking the value of R3 it should be 4M7. I suspect you have a 47M in there and it is dropping too much voltage.
Try that first and let us know what you get.
Dan |
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Monstruarte
Joined: Sep 25, 2009
Posts: 73
Location: Argentina
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:59 pm Post subject:
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thanks for answering dan.
I check the resistor R3, is 4.7M.
Any other suggestions? |
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RF
Joined: Mar 23, 2007
Posts: 1502
Location: Northern Minnesota, USA
Audio files: 28
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:08 pm Post subject:
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| Monstruarte wrote: | I realized something. The AR REPEAT does not work. I know that only works in Trig'd mode, still does not work.
the AR REPEAT is always repeating itself, it's as if the shutdown does not work.] |
Hang in there - we'll get it....
Is it always repeating no matter what mode (Gate or Trigger) the AR MODE switch is in? Does it change if you switch either the AR MODE switch or the AR REPEAT switch?
bruce
_________________
www.sdiy.org/rfeng
"I want to make these sounds that go wooo-wooo-ah-woo-woo.”
(Herb Deutsch to Bob Moog ~1963) |
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Monstruarte
Joined: Sep 25, 2009
Posts: 73
Location: Argentina
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:24 am Post subject:
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I have no idea what is happening.
I replace both batteries with new ones, this solves the problem of AR REPEAT. but I still have the same voltages.
Forget the REPEAT AR problem, it is solved.
Starting from the beginning.
| Quote: | | Disconnect the external gate if you are using the external gate feature. With no external gate connected, S3 (AR Mode switch) set to "Gated" and S1 not pushed you should see +8 to +9 volts (depending on your meter's impedance) between pin 1 of C2 and ground. |
According to Ray should be +8 or +9 V on pin 1 of C2, but I only have about 1.70V, I just test with new batteries.
AR generator works perfectly. but apparently not working as the GATE IN, the problem should be in the AR circuits, right? |
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RF
Joined: Mar 23, 2007
Posts: 1502
Location: Northern Minnesota, USA
Audio files: 28
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:46 am Post subject:
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Check for 9Volts on either side of R3 (4.7 Meg) against ground. Black lead on ground, red lead of either side of R3.
Check solder connections on R3.
Check solder connections on IC1A - especially Pin 1....
Look for 'whiskers' of wire, or a splash of solder crossing some traces...
Are you sure switch S1 is OK? Might it be damaged in an 'always on' situation?
bruce
_________________
www.sdiy.org/rfeng
"I want to make these sounds that go wooo-wooo-ah-woo-woo.”
(Herb Deutsch to Bob Moog ~1963) |
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Monstruarte
Joined: Sep 25, 2009
Posts: 73
Location: Argentina
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:18 am Post subject:
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I realized something, when I connect the Sequencer in the sound lab. and connect the gate out of the Sequencer at the gate in of the sound lab, and for example turn on the switches from step 1 to step 8, and turn off the switches in step 9 to step 1, and measure the voltage output jack GATE Out of the Sequencer. This gives me 0v for steps 1 to 8. and different types of voltage to the steps that are not running, of 9 to 16.
Now. would not have to be backwards? the steps that are off should mark 0v? the steps that are turned on would not have to make different types of voltages?
anyway, the sound of the steps it always sounds, and I still have trouble turning off the sound of each step through the gate switches. |
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Monstruarte
Joined: Sep 25, 2009
Posts: 73
Location: Argentina
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:24 pm Post subject:
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| Quote: | | Check for 9Volts on either side of R3 (4.7 Meg) against ground. Black lead on ground, red lead of either side of R3. |
I have +9V on pin 1 of resistor R3.
| Quote: | | Check solder connections on R3. |
That is fine.
| Quote: | | Check solder connections on IC1A - especially Pin 1.... |
This is fine too.
| Quote: | | Look for 'whiskers' of wire, or a splash of solder crossing some traces... |
Nothing in sight. in fact this board is made with great care and is in perfect condition. No whiskers or splash.
| Quote: | Are you sure switch S1 is OK? Might it be damaged in an 'always on' situation?
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The S1 is ok. responds perfectly. As stated earlier, the AR REPEAT problem was solved by changing the batteries. |
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RF
Joined: Mar 23, 2007
Posts: 1502
Location: Northern Minnesota, USA
Audio files: 28
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:30 pm Post subject:
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| Monstruarte wrote: | [
I have +9V on pin 1 of resistor R3.
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How about on pin 2? - (the other side of R3)
bruce
_________________
www.sdiy.org/rfeng
"I want to make these sounds that go wooo-wooo-ah-woo-woo.”
(Herb Deutsch to Bob Moog ~1963) |
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RF
Joined: Mar 23, 2007
Posts: 1502
Location: Northern Minnesota, USA
Audio files: 28
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:34 pm Post subject:
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If the voltage is not close to 9 volts on the other side of R3...
...then check orientation on Q8,
or check if if Q8 is shorted...
If it's OK, maybe c1 is shorted (not so likely)
If those are OK, then it must be a bad IC1...
bruce
_________________
www.sdiy.org/rfeng
"I want to make these sounds that go wooo-wooo-ah-woo-woo.”
(Herb Deutsch to Bob Moog ~1963) |
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Monstruarte
Joined: Sep 25, 2009
Posts: 73
Location: Argentina
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:18 am Post subject:
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| Quote: | | How about on pin 2? - (the other side of R3) |
The pin 1 of R3 mark +9 v
The pin 2 of R3 mark +1.70 v
| Quote: | | check orientation on Q8 |
This is perfect
| Quote: | | or check if if Q8 is shorted |
How to know if is shorted? |
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jordroid
Joined: Jan 17, 2010
Posts: 193
Location: ithaca, new york
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:35 am Post subject:
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| Monstruarte wrote: |
| Quote: | | or check if if Q8 is shorted |
How to know if is shorted? |
By using your meter set to beep when there is continuity, check each of the pins of the 2n3904 to each other, if it beeps then there is a short.
It is sometimes hard to probe right on the transistor pins, and you can follow the schematic and probe in spots that are easier to get at if necessary. For instance the emitter of Q8 is grounded, so you could clip your probe to ground when checking for shorts between the emitter and base/collector. Hope that makes sense. |
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Monstruarte
Joined: Sep 25, 2009
Posts: 73
Location: Argentina
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:09 am Post subject:
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| I check each of the pins of the 2N3904 to each other, no sound beeps on the multimeter. |
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RF
Joined: Mar 23, 2007
Posts: 1502
Location: Northern Minnesota, USA
Audio files: 28
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:41 am Post subject:
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Did you use a socket for IC1? If so, pull the IC and measure the voltage at pin one of that socket....
bruce
_________________
www.sdiy.org/rfeng
"I want to make these sounds that go wooo-wooo-ah-woo-woo.”
(Herb Deutsch to Bob Moog ~1963) |
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RF
Joined: Mar 23, 2007
Posts: 1502
Location: Northern Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:43 am Post subject:
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...and try to remember we do this for fun
Troubleshooting is like figuring out a puzzle.
bruce
_________________
www.sdiy.org/rfeng
"I want to make these sounds that go wooo-wooo-ah-woo-woo.”
(Herb Deutsch to Bob Moog ~1963) |
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Monstruarte
Joined: Sep 25, 2009
Posts: 73
Location: Argentina
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| Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:42 pm Post subject:
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I change the IC2 and IC1, with two new IC.
Nothing different.
The voltage on pin 1 of IC1 remains the same as before.
when I measure the pin 1 of the socket without the integrated circuit IC1, this mark 0v
I have no idea where to look. I ran out of ideas. |
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RF
Joined: Mar 23, 2007
Posts: 1502
Location: Northern Minnesota, USA
Audio files: 28
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| Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:08 pm Post subject:
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Remove Q8 and measure the voltage at Pin one of the IC 1.
If it's still 0 volt then pull C2 and measure the voltage at Pin one of the IC1.
_________________
www.sdiy.org/rfeng
"I want to make these sounds that go wooo-wooo-ah-woo-woo.”
(Herb Deutsch to Bob Moog ~1963) |
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Monstruarte
Joined: Sep 25, 2009
Posts: 73
Location: Argentina
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:37 am Post subject:
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| RF wrote: | Remove Q8 and measure the voltage at Pin one of the IC 1.
If it's still 0 volt then pull C2 and measure the voltage at Pin one of the IC1. |
all without the IC1 in the socket, right?
What is the voltage that should mark without the IC1 in the socket? |
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RF
Joined: Mar 23, 2007
Posts: 1502
Location: Northern Minnesota, USA
Audio files: 28
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:07 am Post subject:
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It should be the same...It just eliminates one possible problem.
That's what we're doing here - Looking at the circuit and trying to determine which part is bad or wired wrong or has a poor connection - and we're doing it by elimination.
Something connected to the junction of IC1 and C2 is pulling the voltage low, or a connection from the 9V source through R3 is not complete which is resulting in 0 votage at the pin one of the IC.
We want a logic "Hi" there without the gate switch pushed - maybe 6 to 9 volts.. the exact voltage is not important, it just needs to be high enough to activate the Schmidt trigger (the 40106) - that's about about 2/3 power supply voltage.
That's why I questioned the function of the gate switch. It seemed most logical to me that it was shorted closed.
Next logical to me is a bad transistor Q8, a small 'whisker' of wire shorted to ground in that area, a poor solder joint, a bridged solder joint, a shorted C2, a damaged IC2, an open R3....
As far as I can seel - it's got to be one of those problems.
Keep at it - You'll find it.
bruce
_________________
www.sdiy.org/rfeng
"I want to make these sounds that go wooo-wooo-ah-woo-woo.”
(Herb Deutsch to Bob Moog ~1963) |
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