NL: 50.000 ID fines in 9 months

elektro80 · Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:26 pm Post subject: NL: 50.000 ID fines in 9 months

Since the introduction of compulsory identification in the Netherlands on
January 1st 2005, the police have fined 50.000 people that could or would
not present a valid ID. Almost 4.000 of those who were fined were children
aged 14 and 15. The statistics are provided by the Central Judicial
Collection office.

About 25% of the people fined do not pay the 50 euro fee (or 25 euro fee
for children between 14 and 16 years old). These cases are presented to
the local courts. On 28 September the court of Utrecht chose to create a
marathon session for the first 250 cases. Only a quarter of the people
appeared. Most of them were men that were involved in minor offences, such
as driving without belt or peeing in public. One of them was really upset
about the case. To the national RTL News he said: "Everybody can see I am
Dutch and not a terrorist!" During the session there was a small
demonstration in front of the court. The participants demanded withdrawal
of the law, because it does not increase security and only causes double
fines.

Since the spring of 2005, there is a hotline to report abuse of the law on
compulsory identification. Many parents have complained to the hotline
they do not want their children to continuously have a passport or ID card
on them. The hotline also reports complaints from parents who were
completely anxious about their children not returning home in time, after
which they found out they were held in a police cell and not allowed to
call home.

The national ombudsman in the Netherlands even reports complaints from
people who voluntarily reported themselves as witnesses to accidents, but
were fined because they could not show their ID. In fact one of the
arguments for introducing the law was the need for the police to be able
to identify witnesses. Fining voluntary witnesses is of course the surest
way to make any witness run away from the scene as fast as possible.

The last bizarre incident in the Netherlands was the arrest of a
demonstrator in The Hague who was part of a very large (and authorised)
demonstration of the left wing movement. The man held up a sign protesting
against compulsory ID. The police officers at the event accused the man of
'unauthorised assembly' and wanted to see his ID. He didn't have it with
him and was taken to the station to have his fingerprints taken.

Finally, living up to the fears of many people opposing the law from the
start, there indications that people with a coloured skin are demanded to
show their ID more so than others. Achmed Aboutaleb, a famous Amsterdam
municipal manager (alderman), said his son was asked for his ID 8 times
within a few months. He contends that the ID checks occurred only because
his son 'looks Moroccan'.

Hotline abuse law on compulsory identification (in Dutch only)
http://www.id-nee.nl/

Kassen · Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:00 am Post subject:

Notice that this law is only a relatively slight change from the old situation; it already was a crime to not be able to I.D. yourself when you were cought for some other crime. Right now you are requirered to be able to I.D. yourself but this can only be asked for if there is some reason, for example suspicious behaviour.

Also not that under Dutch law wearing a uniform does *NOT* prove you are a police officer. This means that you are entitled to demand to see the i.d. of a police officer before showing him yours, this is exactly what various organisations sugest you do.

No news on wether this has actually stoped any terrorist atacks yet.

elektro80 · Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:31 am Post subject:

Does this mean that I could be fined if I was stopped by the police and my passport was in the safe at the hotel? So, basically the Schengen agreement is to be filed under H.. for "hot manure"?

Kassen · Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:51 am Post subject:

That would probably depend. Practically speaking that's probably fine most of the time but if they'd want to get you for some reason (for example because you might look like a muslim) then yeah you might get fined for that.

Still; this might well be against international agreements, I don't think it's had time to be properly tested. Filing a complaint about such a thing would probably be quite hard though and I suspect they'll drop the charges before they let this one get tested. The point isn't justice or rights, the point of the law is getting some nice extra pocket change and being able to harase musl -erm- I meant stop terrorists.

Come on, Stein, international agreements? human rights? you still use 8track casettes, right, oldtimer? Nope, we need order and laws; people need to be contained or they will take our freedom.

If people don't agree with their representatives then this is to blame on improperly conducted "information campaigns" and it's perfectly fine to say so on primetime TV.

sebber · Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:53 am Post subject:

In Germany it's always been like this. I carry my ID with me all the time, as I do with my drivers licence. To me it's normal and Schengen means not having to show a passport and cross borders like in the USA. I only have to show my ID when I get in contact with the police. I only got stopped once in my life to show my ID to police that was driving by. So I can't really say negative things about it since I'm used to it and I'd say electronic cash and cameras everywhere scan you much more than this. The real problem is that police, as they seem to do everywhere, asks always the same people to show their ID, which is a problem with the police, not of the law.
I think Schengen is a good thing and I hate crossing the swiss border with helicopters above and I always have to stop and they tell me to wait while they scan my ID.
Entering the USA is worse, though...

elektro80 · Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:59 am Post subject:

rnp · Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 55 Location: germany

true to a degree sebber - you won't be fined if you're caught without your ID and it's most certainly not a crime not to carry one all the time. law states that you're required to _own_ one if you're over 16 years of age. the worst that can happen if you can't ID yourself is that the police will escort you home and you need to show it to them there.

Kassen · Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 3:16 am Post subject:

yes, but fortunately it's all fairly harmless. I believe polls show that our prime minister leads to embaracement more then oposition as such. Basically we don't care.

It's all quite silly. Our crownprince maried a daughter of a dictator (traditionally that family finds fashism a great turn-on). This then led to quite a few questions and debate untill -get this- she called the crown prince "a bit stupid" on national television which promptly made her the darling of the people. Now everybody likes her and she can do no harm. It turned out she hadn't taken a real examination to get her driver's lisence, then used this lisence to drive at a rather high speed without realy looking, putting a man in the hospital. This is all considered to be perfectly fine since she called the crown prince "a bit stupid".