Wicky/ Hyden keyboard layout best for MIDI

[jjj]

That's why the good Thummer and Jammer would need a bunch of pioneer geeks to initially play, herald and so, indirectly promote and recommend this innovative instrument to the new generation of hobby musicians. In this way a new musical mentality will be fostered.
We now live in "fast times"; few young people have got the time to endlessly practice 48 (right & left hand) scales and its chords and inversions, while the same key shaped Thummer and Jammer layout makes it possible to get away with far less tears & sweat, by learning and practicing only one scale major and minor pattern and achieving the same end result!!

[seraph]

[MusicScienceGuy]

[seraph]

[jjj]

Below some great button players. I discovered that it's the C-system accordion they play.
We would need a Demo from this 15-y.o. kid:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lxrZ5ey9h8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNJrqaNEmuA

Editor's note: I embedded the 2 files - seraph

[seraph]

[jjj]

[jjj]

I believe that there's such a thing, as "the easiest to learn & play keyboard layout". Could it be that those denying it are merely ignorant about how to assess the various keyboards scientifically?
The fact that concertina expert good Richard Morse recommended the Wicki and since the Thummer and Jammer uses the same layout that gave me some kind of certainty, because my music theory isn't good enough to scientifically verify, which of all the layouts offers the attributes I'm after. On the other hand, I imagine that it must be possible to work it out once and for all. Once that has been established it's then left to individual preference with how much less one is willing to put up... (!)

Maybe it depends on what kind of melodies one aims to play? In my case it will be just about everything that sounds great and has an interesting melody.

From what I can see the Wicki layout allows a greater hand span than the C/B-system. The W/H has also a more logical layout, because the incidentals are nicely put aside, yet easily reachable, whereas the C/B- system layout's incidentals are also easily reachable, yet introduce an element of irregularity into its layout. Thus, my type of innovative (Klavarskribo-like) notation would be impossible to implement.
Of course any button keyboard is still easier to learn & play (than the zebra piano layout), because of it's keyboard's uniformity. Seen in this context one could say, the Wicki is the keyboard layout with the most uniformity of them all!! That should be good enough to call it "the best or the easiest to learn & play layout of them all!"
Of course any keyboard layout requires learning and skills acquisition. That has never been easy, but still sooo much easier with the "easiest to learn & play keyboard" and that's what I'm after, aren't you?!

[MusicScienceGuy]

Hi, when I said a demonstration was needed, I thought more of a program that would convert a midi input file into an visible set of notes on a screen in a coloured Wicki array, along with the music playing. This would let one see what was actually happening in the music, or at least give a different view.
If one is a composer, like you, it should give interesting insight into the music.

Another way to do it would be to play the music on the pc keyboard. Here is a link to one. .
but, at first, learning to play it gets in the way.

Seraph, do you have contact to suggest of anyone that could do this little midi-to-screen chore? What forum could I ask?

Ken.

[seraph]

[MusicScienceGuy]

Pity - I'll put it on my long "to do" list, to be written it in Max/MSP.

To anyone reading this list, I don't know chuck - can it do this?
It would be very nice to have a utility that would take a midi file and display it's output visually, in Janko, Wicki (Thummer/jammer) and Triad (C-Thru) layout. I have strong reason to believe (experimental proof from playing my jammer) that it would illustrate how musical compostions work.

Ken.

[jjj]

Only big companies, such as ROLAND can afford to make a lots of wind about the introduction of their new products. Have a look what they did with the introduction of their V-Accordion range.
They arranged "V-Accordion Festivals" all over Europe and Americas etc. and their product are retailed in countless shops...

Thummer and Jammer simply lack the infrastructure for it so, the only way they can succeed is to start from the bottom, just as once unknown, little Roland did, by offering hobby musician a far more affordable alternative.
In other words, delaying the release of Thummer, Jammer merely procrastinates its popularity and offers Roland and other audio giants a chance to flock their innovative MIDI gadgets.
Worst of all, their button keyboards are mappable with any layout and that takes away the uniqueness of Thummer's and Jammer's layout.
Thus, "affordability" is now the Thummer's and Jammer's only advantage, because big companies have lots of commissions to pay.

[MusicScienceGuy]

I'm not sure of your point here.

I'm just trying to get the jammer instrument going as a DIY alternative to the Thummer, as a backup plan.

Jim has spent a lot of money - mortgaged his house; put off his children's education - promoting his invention. He has worked hard and risked much. Someone could, indeed, come out with a competitive product anytime, but he has thought of ways for this to work to his advantage. If you know of a spare $300-$500 thousand dollars looking for an investment, send it his way.

One thing that would help (to lure the $500K to Jim) is to have a good demonstration - the current Thummer demos are not quite there, and my playing is surely not there yet. I wish you luck with your conversion.

Ken.

[jjj]

I buy a KINO (that's the name of the lottery here) hoping for good luck!
I imagine that Jim has spent a lot of money, but what is he waiting for?
Once he got a few dedicated musical players (with time on hand!) practicing it, one or the other will make it.
Well, I wished I could start to build mine, but as mentioned all my electronics staff is packed up... because we want to sell the house and move. So, I'm stuck in a limbo, waiting for what will happen. Yesterday we lost another buyer... that's life.
With my project I don't need to count on luck. It will be quite straightforward to build. No real building it problems, for it just parallel connects to the existing Synth switches. But, before I go ahead I need to do a bit more homework on the theoretical bit; namely, comparing the fingerings between button keyboard layouts. m3838 (from the Concertina forum) warned me that the Wicki layout is prone to finger entangling problems...

[jjj]

In my mission of "finding the easiest to learn & play keyboard layout," I only considered the Wicki, the C-System (easier than Bayan) and Janko to replace the awkward zebra piano layout.
Yesterday I tried to place a few chord patterns onto the Wicki layout and was shocked to discover how difficult the fingering of four note chords were! Now I understand what you meant... Ken with: "The Hard Part is learning how to learn how to play the thing".
Albeit the Jammer keyboard has a decently sized buttons, it still will be pretty hard enough to learn its fingering patterns of 4 note chords and its inversions. Single note play will be much easier.
In fact the W/H fingering is even more complicated than the C/B-system accordion fingering! That's worrying...
In this regard even the lousy zebra piano is ergonomically better off.
These facts force me to reconsider the Janko, for it has both worlds: the advantage of layout uniformity and ergonomic comfort.
Its disadvantage is its hand span of only 1 1/2 octave, but then again, the zebra piano has even less hand span and sounds O.K., too.
In other words, the Japs must have done their homework with their Chromatone.
It's about time I'm getting the fact right:
--------------------------------------------------------------
W/H:
1) Pretty hard to learn fingering patterns of 4 note chords.
2) I have to learn from the whole system from "0"
3) Easy to implement Klavarskribo type notation
4) 4 to 5 octave hand span!
===================
C-System:
1) Button fingering easier than W/H
2) I have to learn from the whole system from "0"
3) Very difficult to implement Klavarskribo type notation
4) Nearly 2 octave hand span!
5) Harder to learn than W/H (more irregular)
===================
Janko:
1) Key fingering ergonomically ideal
2) Faster to learn, for I already play the piano accordion
3) Ideal to implement Klavarskribo type notation
4) Main disadvantage: hand span of only 1 1/2 octave!
5) Easy to adapt to any Synth (no electronics involved)
===================

It would be nice if you great experts could scrutinize, enrich or amend my gathered facts. Thx
Note: Below the Wicki/Hayden layout is the C-system layout.
[url="http://imageshack.us"][/url]

[MusicScienceGuy]

[jjj]

Yes, I really panic, because this sad fact almost throws all my Wicki aspirations out of the window!

[MusicScienceGuy]

Hmmm,
I fail to see how the fingers would run into each other any more than they would on the Janko layout.
For each chord, playing it as a rolling chord (one finger at a time), or building it with all fingers held down once pressed. they seem fairly simple to me. I can play them. In a few cases, I have to change the inversion, or horrors, use my thumb )

What problems are you having?
Ken

[jjj]

Maybe I threw in the towel too early... just, because of these difficult 4 note chord fingerings, which I might have badly evaluated?
I think I'll have to give it another shot: Do you have any W/H chord fingering charts of the most common chords and its inversions, where the finger figures (1 to 5 or 1 to 4) are indicated? Or where can I find them? Please remember I don't read traditional notation.
It would be helpful if you could add a trick how to simplify the fingerings of 4-note chords. Maybe the 4th note of a 4-note chord can be shifted higher or lower and so, making the 4-note patterns even sound more interesting and easier to grab?
Thanks to the Wicki layout, it won't be too many chord patterns, because I only need one in major, minor, 7th, Dim, Aug, and ?? in order to apply them to all other major and minor scales. Thx for the help.

Beside, did your musical darling wife listen to my twitter Demo and what does she think of it? Mind you, not everybody is fond of "blowing up" music...

[MusicScienceGuy]

I'll try to find a way to do the fingerings this week-end, but if you can try jim's thummer-on-the-PC-keyboard demo (see my website main page), that will help.
Note that the qwerty row and the asdfg row are slightly offset for some dumb reason, so say a U + J + O chord is easier to finger with 2 fingers than a J + I + L chord, and that the keyboard usually can only play 2 notes at a time.

but if you just label the PC keys with a bit of tape noting the musical keys and stretch your fingers. you'll see what can be done. but remember even if you can't play chord X well, there are more, other interesting chords (9th, 13th, 4-5, 12-8-5 etc that can't be easily done on a piano.
If you can play them you'll sound different, interesting and not boring. That's what my new music teacher (a gifted jaz sax player) says, anyway.

The other thing is, the W/h layout shows you what you are doing, so you can invent and compose more music.
Ken.

[jjj]

I had another look at http://www.box.net/public/g6v2ubkvp3 for chords. Also, I made the Wicki pattern bigger and so, I can finger it more accurately on my PC screen.
Some 4-note chords patterns are truly hard to finger. The Thummer operates with 4 fingers only. How to do that? Pretty twiddly, isn't it?
Yet, if the 4th not is chosen an octave higher or lower, the pattern becomes easier to finger and it sounds more interesting, too. This advice gave me Rich Morse; the W/H expert.
So, I suppose I'm going to go for both, the Janko and Wicki. As mentioned, all my electronic stuff is packed up (until I sell house, move and fit my workshop) and so, the only thing I can do this time is to unpack the Synth again (with the Janko keyboard on it) and practice this one and as soon I'm able to get to my electronic stuff, I'll build this Wicki button keyboard. At least I have got the necessary passion and time for it. Ideal job for resilient age pensioners, like me!

Below is an enlarged Wicki pattern. Click on it twice to enlarge! I think the first click is the Thummers original button size?? Q: How big in diameter (mm) are the Thummer's buttons? Same as PC keys? Can you please reduce/ adjust the layout shown below to fit the original Thummer button size. That helps me to find the best fingering for each chord pattern. They (and their inversions) then have to be learned and practiced.
A good idea would be to create a flashcard chord learning program. This would help preparing for the theoretical part of playing the Thummer.
Actually, I plan to make up a W/H button chart and a chord chart, showing vital chord patterns so, that I can look at it during play.
Also, I'm going to create a few simple melodies on my innovative notation. That helps me to get over the initial hurdles.

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[MusicScienceGuy]

Remember that you can use your thumb.

I've not used my thumb, because:
1. I plan to mount the two modulaion wheels on my thumbs, for cool effects - e.g. plucking strings, pitch bending
2. First things first; one should learn solidly the basics before going on to the extras.

ken.

Ps. make sure your button switches are light and responsive. my keys are about 2-3 times harder to press than a piano, and this prevents playing 8th and 16 notes.

[jjj]

My button switches are as soft as PC switches... that's why they call them "PC keyboard switches".
Not sure though that they last, because they got a clamp/ pin type of contact and after some long time they might fail (?) In that case I'll convert them into pistons to push down a set of homemade contacts...

[seraph]

[MusicScienceGuy]

That one way to help a marriage.