SoundCard Advice

[Static Strobe Emitter]

Anyone can give some advice which soundcard is the greatest
for best quality and least money?

I would like an EAX and A3D Render on the card to
(like on the SB512 ive got now) cause it give very cool
sounds in games and environmental effects.

the only fault is that 16-Bit@44khz is the maximum.

So my question is, what card has got EAX/A3D and like
24-Bit@192Khz for a cheap price? (and noise reduction is preferable)

[elektro80]

I guess there are some guys here who might know some about PC soundcards and games etc. When it comes to recording music I am not quite sure you should go for gamesound style card. There is a new one out now from M-Audio ( http://www-m-audio.com ) which is a PCI card version of their Firewire 410 box. Dunno the exact URL.. but you will find that one at their site. Seems like a good choice for audio and the specs are just great. One issue.. the card has a LOT of outputs... which is cool.. for like live playing etc. I am getting the firewire version myself.

[elektro80]

http://www.m-audio.com/products/m-audio/delta410.php

Product blurb:

Delta 410






(MSRP: $249.95 USD)



Why a Delta audio card?
Sound quality, performance, and superior driver technology are a few of the reasons that Delta audio cards have established worldwide recognition as a top choice in PCI-based digital audio solutions. With superb engineering and ultra-high quality conversion, the fidelity of the Delta 410 outperforms cards that cost many times more. The 410 offers the professional performance required by today’s most popular software programs, and provides you with features like 24-bit 96 kHz recording, zero latency monitoring and digital mixing.



Why the 410?
Recordings are often put together one track at a time (a guitar solo here, a vocal there) as opposed to being all tracked simultaneously. As a result, many musicians decide to choose an audio card with fewer Ins and more Outs rather than spending money on a lot of inputs they may never use. The Delta 410’s 4-in/10-out configuration is created with this type of recording approach in mind. The multi-output card is often combined with an analog mixer, allowing a computer-based recording system to behave more like a traditional analog one. Recording inputs are quickly routed to the same inputs of the soundcard via a patchbay or mixer. Outputs are sent to mixer channels or analog effects devices, allowing for an “analog studio” style configuration where signals are bussed to and from a mixer in the analog domain.



What about drivers?
Drivers are what allows your card to communicate with audio applications. M-Audio offers drivers compliant with almost every possible application on the market. For Macintosh, there are both Sound Manager and several different versions of ASIO. For Windows, there are ASIO, ASIO2, GSIF, EASI, as well as multi-client WDM (Win 2K) and Win 98 / ME drivers. Multiclient drivers allow you to use multiple applications simultaneously, allowing you to run sequencers, soft-synths, and other programs at the same time. We are also committed to supporting both MacOS X and Windows XP.







Studiophile BX5


Need speakers? The Studiophile BX5 speakers are designed to work perfectly with M-Audio gear, and because they're self powered, all you need is a cable to use them. Click for more info...



The Delta 410 has what you need.
• Convenient and powerful routing possibilities
• Unsurpassed fidelity
• Superior driver technology
• The broadest compatibility of any card
• Zero latency monitoring
• Expandability
• Bit-for-bit accurate digital transfers via S/PDIF
• 24-bit 96 kHz recording
• Powerful digital mixing and routing.
• Control over SCMS (Serial Copy Management System).



Delta 410 Specifications:
• 4x10 24-bit/96khz full-duplex recording interface.
• PCI card with break-out cable to gold-plated RCA jacks.
• 8 Analog Outs, -10dB unbalanced consumner signal levels.
• 2 Analog Ins, configured for -10dB unbalanced signal levels.
• S/PDIF digital I/O on gold-plated RCA connectors located on the PCI card. A variety
of settings, including AC3 or DTS surround and copy protection schemes, may be configured via the Delta Control Panel software.
• High dynamic range (A-weighted measured): D/A 101.5 dB, A/D 99.6 dB.
• Low distortion (measured THD @ 0dBFS): A/D and D/A less than 0.002%.
• Frequency Response:
22-22kHz, -0.2,-0.4dB @48kHz
22-40kHz, -0.2,-0.7dB @96kHz
• All data paths support up to 24bit/96kHz performance, no upgrades necessary.
• Comprehensive digital mixing, routing, and monitoring capabilities with included Delta Control Panel software.
• Hardware sample-accurate sync will allow linking of multiple Delta units.



System Requirements (PC):
• Windows 95, 98, NT, 2000 or ME
• Pentium III 500Mhz - (96kHz operation)
• Pentium II 400 - (48kHz operation)
• 128 MB of PC100 RAM - (96kHz operation)
• 64 MB of SDRAM - (48kHz operation)
• UDMA EIDE or ATA 33/66




System Requirements (Mac):
• MacOS 8.6 or higher
• G4 or G3
• 128 MB RAM - (96kHz operation)
• 64 MB RAM - (48kHz operation)




This Package includes:
• Delta 410 PCI Card
• Driver and Software CDs
• Breakout Cable



Physical Specs:
• Dimensions: 10.5" x 2.5" x 8.5"
• Weight: 1.24 lb.

[Static Strobe Emitter]

That card does really sound fantastic ;DD
but I cant afford a card like that NOW, over 200 $ for a SoundCard
is a little expensive for me I can reach about 120 $ maybe,
but I guess you have to pay for quality

Anyway, i remember a friend of mine buying TerraTec Card
some years ago. the Retail price for it was around 900$
. Havent looked at the spec yet for that card.

[elektro80]

M-Audio has a thingie calle PreMobile? Possibly something for you? It uses USB. Supposed to be pretty OK.

[Static Strobe Emitter]

But it was only 16 bit resolution....
*and somewhat expensive for 16 bit*

[Static Strobe Emitter]

The FireWire Module they had was outstandingly cool...but...hey...500 $ =//////

[elektro80]

hehe.. yeah... sure.. but maybe the audiophile 2496 card??

Frankly.. I think you should go for a new design if you are looking for 24 bit.. Where are you from ? Sweden? I guess you can get the cards a bit below list price.
I agree with 24 bit.. I use 24 bit myself. Smart. 16 bit is unkool.

[Static Strobe Emitter]

I can get a Creative Audigy 2 here in sweden for about 80$
with 24 bit/192khz, eax , and all.

BUT people around the net most often say "dont choose creative sound, they are no good" is that true? :///

even though i got a creative now, and its nothing wrong with it....yet...:/

[elektro80]

Ahh.. I am not the right guy to answer that one. I am using macs for music. I guess EGW and others might know more about that.. but.. how do you intend to use the card for music making? Do you use softsynths only or do you have some external gear too?

[Static Strobe Emitter]

Mostly I use various of softsynth tools,
so I dont need the built in sounds or Music Effects
of the "Real" Music making cards, the Pentium 4 is fast
enough rendering these in realtime anyway,

Im more interested in getting the 24 Bit sound which of I have
heard is sound great on a high end stereo.

[dmosc]

I have a lot of mixed opinions on this one, it's something I get into a lot with my business. There's two questions here, what's a good sound card and what sound card do I need.

I know some about the Creative Audigy line, the first generation and the second generation. Being much cheaper than some high end recording cards, they're often discussed as being of less quality. I will refer you to a tomshardware.com article comparing 24bit/96khz soundcards.

http://www6.tomshardware.com/video/20020115/index.html

The article compares a higher end card to the audigy first generation platinum. I think the comparison is representative only for considering whither the audigy is sufficient. I don't know about the value/performance of the other card, but it makes an excellent high end comparison. The article also points to some major flaws with the audigy not being "true" 24/96khz. I can tell you that the major difference between the audigy and the audigy2 is that these flaws, which hurt the original's sales, were removed by beefing up the chip with more transistors, wider paths, etc. so the audigy2 does feature "true" 24/96khz recording. That said, the article kind of proved to me that the audigy2 is as good a general performance soundcard as probably most anything, specialized applications aside. Remember that you can get just the card without the front breakout box for about $80 so an audigy2 is a powerful AND low priced option.

The harder question to answer is one you hinted on at the end, does the 24/96khz soundcard actually make a difference and thus justify the cost? does it sound better?

This one I am not the most qualified to answer but I would first like to say that it matters a lot on your setup. If you're using the digital output, what kind of decoder are you using? What is the sensitivity of your speakers? From my estimations, decoders and especially speakers need to be on the very high side before you'd notice a difference between 16bit and 24bit sound. It probably also matters a lot on the ear of the person listening. I've listened to loud music a lot, maybe my ears cut out at 16khz. etc...

My main point is that although the human ear does not need upgrading, computer part manufacturers wouldn't survive without them. I can assure you that they'll continue to manufacture any need we may have, even if it's totally hype. Anything less would be bad business.

Maybe the 24/96khz IS important and better but maybe we're just debating the need for something like gold connectors on digital cables or inserting the left end of a male/male RCA cable instead of the right end to your computer (joke).

[elektro80]

If you are an audiophile you might want to record old reel to reel tapes and LPs using 24/96khz or even at 4 bit /192khz, You do get a " better " frequency curve... but what audiophiles will want is basically denser ( or more rapid sampling and better samples ( 24 bit contains an extra 8 bit compared to 16 bit ). You also get better dynamics.. the headroom is lot better than at 16 bit 44.1khz. 24/96khz etc also takes processing a lot ( a REAL lot ) better than 16bit/44.1khz files.

So.. forget the frequency response. If you will make music that will end up on a CD you will have to take it down to the 16 bit / 44.1khz anyway.. but you will benefit from using 24/96khz if you intend to process the tracks a lot. On the other hand I do think that your PC will not cope with a huge multitrack project at this quality. What you can do is work at 44.1 khz and 24 bit.. and when you do the stereo mix ( before mastering ) you can up the output when the channels are summed .. into 24/96khz. then process with a multichannel compressor and limiter.. doing eq etc. And then bump it down into CD audio quality.

There is not much point to work in like 24/96khz just to get a cooler sound out on the stereo. Most run of the mill stereos out there cannot handle anything close to a dynamic groovy recording at 24/96khz. If you spend like 20 000 USD on the stereo.. ok.. but I do not think you have anything close to this at home.

Hmm.. I forgot studio recording of acoustic instruments using 24/96khz and better. because of the added dynamics etc . recording drums etc at this quality makes a lot of sense. Also recordings of like string ensembles with added ambience etc. But if you are not a pro then 44.1khz at 24 bit will do fine for now.

OK.. then the summary: 24/96khz etc is not really about bandwidth but about better quality in the audible frequncy range and getting a file that will take processing better. Even though you cannot hear the difference between 16bit/16khz and 24/96khz , your recordings/mixes will benefit . The whole of the pro audio business is taking their gear into 24/96khz or better because of this. fact is.. there is a lot of serious processing you can do at 24/96khz that will not really work that well at 16bit/44.1 khz.

the way you explain your needs I guess you might as well try to get some decent 24bit/48khz card of semipro quality. There should be a few out there now, secondhand. And you should be able to live with such a card until you can afford 300USD or so.

[vijayan]

You could try the M Audio revolution card. It is a 24/96 bcard and is also optimized for gaming. It compares well with the audigy and is a litle chaper, and it is not made by creative Yes the creative drivers suck for serious audio. I only use a SB live 5.1 in my present setup, but I use ASIO drivers written by third party audio enthusiasts. It is called the KX Project, google it for more info. It still only works in 16 bit, but it has awesome ASIO and WDM drivers (it screws up my digital AC3 output though

Even if you go with a 24 bit card, for serious audio work you may want to look for ASIO drivers.

Good luck !
Swamy

[elektro80]

That was good advice.

I am still not quite sure about why you need a an inexpensive 24/96 card. Yes.. sure.. you will get "better" audio output if you have a digital source signal at 24/96.. but if you simply want to get better sound quality for your own projects .. and if they are to land into 16/44.1 space. I reckon you will get better perfomance audio wise with a good 24/44.1 device. preferrably an outboard device on USB or firewire.

( Anyway.. the whole discussion of wordlength/samplerate is a pretty long one.. and there are many ifs and buts. I did post somewhere here a link to a page explaining some digital audio facts. I recommend that link. I know I often say that 16/44.1 sucks.. wich is does.. and better longer wordlengths and higher samplerates are better using like 24/96. But.. achieving better end results are not often easy. I guess we can make a new thread about this soon. )


But.. I will subscribe to the advice you got from vijayan too.

[invisibl]

24/96 is mainly marketing hype. Sorry but true.

High quality analog to digital conversion relies on many things, Including but not limited to, Clock stability, Jitter and convertors.

The proliferation of misinformation on the internet is counterproductive and unfortunate.

The below link should help clear up any issues.
i will be back to see if my post has been interpreted as a trolling or a flame.

Hopefully neither!

Oh, and I have no link to the gentlemans writings myself. I am not him. I dont work for him. I dont know him.


www.cadenzarecording.com/papers

[elektro80]

Good point.

True, there is a lot of hype out there re audio cards and specs like 24/96. Very few know WHY they would need a 24/96 card. These days people tend to think of a digital audio signal as the "perfect" signal.. something you can really mess with and the output depends on the glorious specs of the audio card alone. Well.. if that is the case then Henry Kissinger is a John Holmes lookalike. What do I know..

Buying a 24/96 card just because these specs are "better" make little sense. On the other hand.. 24/96 has become a feature that all decent cards are supposed to have. Which is.. just hype. You mentioned clock and jitter... true..

[invisibl]

[elektro80]

[Static Strobe Emitter]

I wonder when MP3 Encoders/Decoders will code in 24Bit 96khz (or higher) D

That would be neat.....does even Ogg Vorbis do that?!

Right now i can only see that pure PCM saves 24 bits......

/Da Strobe

[elektro80]

It does not make much sense to use 24/96 or better for mp3 or ogg or acc. Itunes ( the Apple mp3 player ) has an ACC setting to accomodate for input from 44.1/48k 24 bit files. but.. hmm.. it does not make much sense.

But I expect low end consumer apps and gear to present such options soon.. but ...using 24/96 or whatever in formats like these presents more problems than performance gains.

[jkn]

Did a search on soundcards and found this thread. I'm in the weird situation of having my main soundcard possibly be dead and needing repairs (assuming it can be repaired) - and I have a new pc so will need a card for it. If my old one can be repaired cheaply - I'll be thrilled (it's an Aardvark Aark24). That would leave me just picking one up for my new pc which doesn't need the multiple ins/outs that I like at the Aark24.

What's hip and cool these days in PC soundcards? Most of my friends a few years back bought Echo cards - I liked the Aardvark (it was 24 bit before Echo got their Layla24 out) - now I'm seeing a lot of M-Audio cards out there. For my new computer I really only need stereo in, though 4 ins would be better.

Recommendations?