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TZFM SAW VCO
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frijitz



Joined: May 04, 2007
Posts: 1734
Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54

PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Luka wrote:
where can i buy 10 turn pots?

Mouser has them from several manufacturers:
Bourns 3610 series, with built-in counter,
Bourns 3590 series (needs separate turns counting dial H-22 etc)
ETI DW22 & DC22 series (built in)
ETI MW22 series (separate dial)
Vishay model 534/536 (separate dial)
etc.

It's OK to go as low as 10 kOhm for these.

Very Happy

Ian
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zthee



Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 414
Location: Stockholm

PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:

I would like to make some comments, but I don't understand the panel all the way. If I could get some clarification?

1.) In the lower left, "fm in" is what? Lin ... Exp?


That would be lin!

frijitz wrote:

2.) Next to that "cv in", same question.


And that would be Expo!

The way I see it with Buchlaesque designs is that you differ between AC and DC coupled inputs by using minijacks for the former and banans for the latter - but it's not really true - but as a rule of thumb perhaps (That's how I see it).

frijitz wrote:

3.) Bottom right, "MOD INDEX" does what? I see what looks like initial and depth pots, but what are the inputs and outputs? Again, this is presumably Lin fm?


The Mod index is the VCA controlling the amount of modulation coming from the MOD osc- and yes, that would be Lin FM.


frijitz wrote:

4.) Is there a provision for selecting ac/dc coupling on the Lin fm input?


As of now AC coupled only...


frijitz wrote:

5.) Left center. Are the big knob and calibration scale really necessary? The scale will only hold for one particular setting of the "INITIAL FM" setting.


Yes, I thought about that while making it. And figured I'd keep it as it looks nicer - but it's pretty useless.. Smile

frijitz wrote:

6.) Upper left, the "INITIAL FM" switch is two positions or three? What does "thru zero" connotate?


Here's where I might have gotten it all backwards? - The Initial FM switch would provide 3 different voltages to the FM input - At +5V it would behave just like a normal oscillator? At -2.5V it would be a different scale and go "backwards" and att thru zero the input is 0V, so the VCO won't be running at all - hence it needs a signal into the FM input to function propperly - since the FM input is AC coupled it will swing from + to - causing the oscillator to constantly go thru zero? or? Smile

frijitz wrote:

The configuration I ended up with uses 10-turn pots for "init" and "Freq c" and a 1-turn for "Freq f". And ac coupling on the "FM lin" input is very important.


I actually have a few 10-turn pots and knobs, but I think they're so ugly Embarassed I haven't decided how to implement them yet. I'll look into it!

frijitz wrote:

Very impressive art work on the panel!

Very Happy

Ian


Thank you!

And thank you for providing nice circuits to make panels of! Very Happy

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Sound



Joined: Jun 06, 2006
Posts: 842

Audio files: 1

PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:
Sound wrote:
C103 is for stability the opamp A8 so I think that if I put 100pf, it will not affect anything, isn't it?

C102? 100 pF should be OK. Just make sure it doesn't attenuate the Sin output too much at high frequencies.

Quote:
About C104, what is its job? could I change its value? I have few 220pf and 470 pf capacitors. Its 100pf to far?

C103? With R130 it produces a pulse whenever the "Sync" input crosses a small threshold. If this pulse occurs while the Tri wave is within a certain range of phases, the pulse is passed by the discriminator A9b to the Sync input to the CVO core. You could try 470 pF there, but my recommentation would be to use 220 pF in parallel with 100 pF.

Let me know how these changes work out!

Very Happy

Ian


Yes they were C102 and C103. Thanks for the tips. Yes I will update when I finish it.

Just a question, What is a discriminator? I was googling and didn't found clear information.

Regards.
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frijitz



Joined: May 04, 2007
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Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54

PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

zthee wrote:
frijitz wrote:

6.) Upper left, the "INITIAL FM" switch is two positions or three? What does "thru zero" connotate?

Here's where I might have gotten it all backwards? - The Initial FM switch would provide 3 different voltages to the FM input - At +5V it would behave just like a normal oscillator? At -2.5V it would be a different scale and go "backwards" and att thru zero the input is 0V, so the VCO won't be running at all - hence it needs a signal into the FM input to function propperly - since the FM input is AC coupled it will swing from + to - causing the oscillator to constantly go thru zero? or? Smile

OK, thanks. I guess labeling as to the bias voltages would be more consistent. A lot of the interesting sounds I'm getting are in the 0 - .2V bias range. I'm not sure how useful 2.5V is -- it only gets you to 200% modulation. But you'll have to experiment and see what you like. I sure like having a 10-turn there so I can set it reproducibly.

Very Happy

Ian
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frijitz



Joined: May 04, 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sound wrote:
Just a question, What is a discriminator? I was googling and didn't found clear information.

Just another word for a kind of comparator. It discriminates between whether the sync pulse occurs during the phase-lock window or not.

Very Happy

Ian
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here are three more Teezer demos.

Demo1 has six sections with different levels of modulation and sync.

Demo2 was made using 1000% dynamic depth modulation. On the long notes you can hear a very slight pitch shift. With soft sync added (second half) the pitch is steady with only a small difference in timbre.

Demo3 is from the same patch as the first two, with the addition of varying levels of modulation and cross coupling.

Very Happy

Ian


ddtzdemo1.mp3
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ddtzdemo2.mp3
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ddtzdemo3.mp3
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Sound



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:
Sound wrote:
Just a question, What is a discriminator? I was googling and didn't found clear information.

Just another word for a kind of comparator. It discriminates between whether the sync pulse occurs during the phase-lock window or not.

Very Happy

Ian


Hehhe, nice, although your answers always provoke me new questions,
I understood the sync section, Thanks!
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jaidee



Joined: Oct 28, 2007
Posts: 44
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, UK

PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:32 am    Post subject: Conversion to +/15V - which method is best? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Conversion to +/-15V - which method is best?

I'm about to start building my Teeezer and, I suspect like many, want to incorporate it into my MOTM format system running on +/-15V

I'm conscious that two methods of converting the circuit to operate on +/-15V have ben canvassed.

Dave Brown on his excellent web site describes changes to the values (if memory serves) of 4 resistors and 2 diodes.

On the other hand, Ian, the designer of the circuit, describes a method involving the replacement of the several ferrite beads with various diodes.

I do not have the technical knowledge and insight to be able to weigh up these two alternative approaches, and I wonder whether Dave and/or Ian or indeed anyone else with the technical know-how could indicate the pros and cons of the two methods. Can either be said to be preferable or better??

I'm conscious that Ian's method involves the replacement of all of the ferrite beads which were presumably put into the circuit in the first place for a specific purpose. On the other hand, Dave's approach seems to preserve the ferrite beads. Is the retention of the ferrite beads an advantage, or I am simply demonstrating my complete lack of insight here??

Any guidance would be very much appreciated.
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Tasmanian Alkaloid



Joined: Jun 29, 2008
Posts: 116
Location: Isle De Mort

PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:24 am    Post subject: Re: Conversion to +/15V - which method is best? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jaidee wrote:
Conversion to +/-15V - which method is best?

I'm about to start building my Teeezer and, I suspect like many, want to incorporate it into my MOTM format system running on +/-15V

I'm conscious that two methods of converting the circuit to operate on +/-15V have ben canvassed.

Dave Brown on his excellent web site describes changes to the values (if memory serves) of 4 resistors and 2 diodes.

On the other hand, Ian, the designer of the circuit, describes a method involving the replacement of the several ferrite beads with various diodes.

I do not have the technical knowledge and insight to be able to weigh up these two alternative approaches, and I wonder whether Dave and/or Ian or indeed anyone else with the technical know-how could indicate the pros and cons of the two methods. Can either be said to be preferable or better??

I'm conscious that Ian's method involves the replacement of all of the ferrite beads which were presumably put into the circuit in the first place for a specific purpose. On the other hand, Dave's approach seems to preserve the ferrite beads. Is the retention of the ferrite beads an advantage, or I am simply demonstrating my complete lack of insight here??

Any guidance would be very much appreciated.


I used Ian's suggestion with mine, & it works perfect on +/-15v.
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I haven't tested either method extensively, since I always use 12 V supplies, but I think either method is fine. I worked with Dave on his changes and his method seems to thoroughly address all the areas that need modification, although I didn't do a direct comparison with mine. My method potentially provides improved power supply regulation and decoupling, since it actually provides local regulation of all the supply voltages, and additionally it can be applied to any 12V module that needs be adapted to 15V. The beads' purpose is to choke off high frequency noise on the supply lines. If for some reason this still turns out to be a problem for you, you can always put beads on the supply lines external to the board.

Very Happy

Ian
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Sound



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well well well... Laughing I have space in the front panel for two extra jacks... and I'm thinking in:

1)One output of the exponential sum, that seems useful if I want to control the two Teezers (mine is dual) with the same value.
Due I would like to have a 1K resistor at the output and control over the gain because accurate 1V/Octave tracking, I will put two inverting amplifiers at serial connected in the node before the summing amplifier A1a.

2)Another sine output, in order to have one sine to modulate, and other for audio output for example.
I would do it with a voltage follower but in order to make the adds according with the accurate of the circuit, Do I need a compensating capacitor for stability in the voltage follower? If yes, Is it possible to put a compensating capacitor in a voltage follower? where? in the output to ground?
Or is better two inverting amplifiers in serial?... mmm with an extra switch I will have the sine ore the inverted sine...

Do you see these mods useful? other suggestions? all is correct?

Thaaaaaaaaaaanks!
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/mr



Joined: Aug 05, 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sound wrote:
1)One output of the exponential sum, that seems useful if I want to control the two Teezers (mine is dual) with the same value.
Due I would like to have a 1K resistor at the output and control over the gain because accurate 1V/Octave tracking, I will put two inverting amplifiers at serial connected in the node before the summing amplifier A1a.

In the summing node before A1a? I wouldn't touch it. Use the A1a output instead, otherwise it's not summing properly. And you'll just need one inverter.

Sound wrote:
2)Another sine output, in order to have one sine to modulate, and other for audio output for example.
I would do it with a voltage follower but in order to make...

Just make another sine output like the one you have. Another 1k resistor fron A8 output.
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Sound



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for u answer /mr!

/mr wrote:

In the summing node before A1a? I wouldn't touch it. Use the A1a output instead, otherwise it's not summing properly. And you'll just need one inverter.

Aah! I think that I understand... yes the two summing amplifiers would be sharing same Input Resistor... I ll think about.
So if I tap it at A1a output I will need an inverting amplifier R in=2K and R feedback=100K or same ratio...

Quote:
Just make another sine output like the one you have. Another 1k resistor fron A8 output.

There is not need of buffer the output? Isn't the amplitude important in Linear fm?
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/mr



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sound wrote:
Quote:
Just make another sine output like the one you have. Another 1k resistor fron A8 output.

There is not need of buffer the output? Isn't the amplitude important in Linear fm?

Are you worried about buffering in the original schematic?
A8 is your buffer. Smile
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Sound



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ah yes, but I meant a buffer for each output. You are suggesting to put two jacks a the A8 otput, isnt it?
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/mr



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sound wrote:
You are suggesting to put two jacks a the A8 otput, isnt it?

Yes.
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Sound



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks /mr, this simplifies the work, and I can start with this sure. I will take some measures and lets see. I was on the idea that an output with its own buffer opamp is a more accurate job.

Today, I'll make the front panel Very Happy
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/mr



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sound wrote:
I will take some measures and lets see. I was on the idea that an output with its own buffer opamp is a more accurate job.

It is, but the problem is on an almost microscopic scale and I doubt that you would notice any difference. Smile
(But tell us if it didn't work) Wink
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blue hell
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sound wrote:
I was on the idea that an output with its own buffer opamp is a more accurate job.


This touches on your other question about module output impedance. The ouput impedance of an opamp circuit is usually very low, and this means that loading it with a couple of 100 kOhm inputs will only have a marginal effect on the output voltage - and therefor there is no need for multiple buffers.

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Sound



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Blue, I thought that I could lose amplitude like in passive multiples splitting signals and maybe isolation within the two outputs. Finally, I ll do the copy of the sine just wiring other jack.

Prototype frontpanel/hardware for dual eurorack advancing. Very Happy
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I apologise if this has already been answered elsewhere, but can the Teezer operate at subsonic frequencies too?- Like an LFO is what I mean. Smile
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frijitz



Joined: May 04, 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
... can the Teezer operate at subsonic frequencies too?- Like an LFO is what I mean. Smile

Yes. It uses a high-impedance opamp for the integrator, and its input is properly guarded. You can even see the guard ring on the board photo!
http://bridechamber.com/bridechamber.com/F_Teezer.html
(The small brown area.)

The prototypes run down to less than 0.01Hz (over 100 sec ).

Very Happy

Ian

Last edited by frijitz on Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sound



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok Ok Ok, cheers

Just finished the prototype frontpanel and hardware. Dual Teezer.
It has a coarse and a fine pots by the initial pot, an extra DC coupled Linear FM IN, an extra exponential sum out, and an extra sine output.
Oeoeoeoeoe! Very Happy

Edited pictures.

Last edited by Sound on Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sound



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Very Happy The dual teezer is working and sounds amazing.

I have some questions

1) As you can see in the picture, there is a pulse before the ramp starts.
This pulse is in the two teezer.
Only when the Initial control is in the negative range.
The diodes D12 and D13 were matched at cents of volt.
What could be?

2)The fact that I added a Fine Initial pot that pass through a 1MΩ resistor to opamp A3 means that when the two pots (Coarse Initial and Fine Initial) are fully CW is like I'm sending +5,5V.
For send exactly +5V I should put the Fine Initial pot at centre position, thing that is not precise.
So, my question is, Do I need the option of send 5V exactly to A3?


Edited pictures.

Last edited by Sound on Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sound wrote:
... As you can see in the picture, there is a pulse before the ramp starts. This pulse is in the two teezer.
Only when the Initial control is in the negative range.
The diodes D12 and D13 were matched at cents of volt.
What could be?


This is happening because the core sawtooth is not resetting close enough to zero. You can see this from the asymmetry in the Saw amplitudes in your scope shot: +5.3V vs -5.5V. You should also see that the discontinuity at the tips of the Tri wave can not be adjusted out.

You might want to try increasing C6 to 33pF. Dave Brown had a similar issue, and that change solved it. His writeup has an excellent discussion. In my prototypes C6 = 22pF worked better than 33pF, but there may be some differences in the batch of transistors I have compared to the Bridechamber kit. Make sure to read Dave's writeup:
http://modularsynthesis.com/bridechamber/tzfm/tzfm.htm
There will always be a slight discontinuity in the Tri tips, but there is enough hysteresis in the circuit that you should be able to easily eliminate the spurious pulse in the Saw.

Quote:
The fact that I added a Fine Initial pot that pass through a 1MΩ resistor to opamp A3 means that when the two pots (Coarse Initial and Fine Initial) are fully CW is like I'm sending +5,5V.
For send exactly +5V I should put the Fine Initial pot at centre position, thing that is not precise.
So, my question is, Do I need the option of send 5V exactly to A3?

This isn't critical. I would suggest setting the fine control at its center position when adjusting the VCO tracking. You might find that a finer fine control is more useful, ie, use a 3.3M resistor rather than 1M. But that's up to you, of course.

Let me know how this all works out.

Very Happy

Ian
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