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EdisonRex
Site Admin
Joined: Mar 07, 2007
Posts: 4579
Location: London, UK
Audio files: 172
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 Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:07 am Post subject:
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| TekniK wrote: | @SiteAdmin, For commercial sold kits and/or there support subforums here and/pcb offerings via the forum aswell, did you asked (or got) a physical proof from the designers or owners of those circuits to verifie what 'you' (read the forum owner) support is legal?
Or are you just satisfied with a claim writen anywhere, they have had permisson to do it from the designer ,and based on that its 'comform the rules' here? |
Lies tend to get found out sooner or later. Usually sooner. It is logical to assume people are telling the truth first.
"physical proof"? Nobody's ever actually claimed or proven a patent here to my knowledge. Patents cost real money to obtain. And in this discussion that particular aspect was never brought up - quite the opposite, the assertion has been that there were no patents. Oh yeah, and as patents are country specific, we have to assume US patents because that's where the site is based. If there were some bizarre requirement for us (an by extension every other website on the planet that posts content) to check into the veracity of every claim, the Internet would stop working completely.
Luckily the site can't really be held liable for mistakes made in good faith, we just have to correct them if they are pointed out. And most people here, with the exception of a few who seem to enjoy posing difficult to answer questions for whatever reasons, act in both good faith and good intentions. Which again goes back to ethics, not law. But I can't say that enough, apparently.
So for a different and more common example, a service manual for a currently sold synthesizer with a copyright mark plainly displayed on it, posted without permission of the copyright owner, we'd predictably take that down. I don't see that as an academically challenging point either. Do we have to do that? It could be argued as fair use even under the DMCA, although under the DMCA we are not a safe harbour because we moderate the forums (you have to NOT moderate your forums in order to be a safe harbour). Amongst all of the crappy provisions of the DMCA, though, we would receive a takedown notice from the rights holder, if we had fallen afoul by a mistake, and we at least would have the opportunity to fix it, fight it, or risk losing the whole site to a takedown enforcement by ignoring it.
Someone posting their own content with copyright to them on this site is perfectly legitimate, as we have an implied license because the owner posted it. Someone claiming copyright which isn't theirs, we'd have no way whatsoever to know they are lying until the actual owner (or an alleged owner) makes a DMCA complaint. There are actual substantial monetary penalties for making a false DMCA complaint, so I'd hope that nobody really intends to play that game. And that whole event is between the two third parties, not the site anyway.
What I wish people would use is more common sense. Claiming someone gave you permission to use a design, when it is quite likely that the designer will find out (this site is frequented by many people), would be at best embarassing, at worst troublesome for the poster. And lying is unethical anyway.
We are having a number of internal discussions about this to try to be more clear. There is no real reason to assume people are lying about copyright ownership, and the way copyrights work, we don't have to write to 50+ copyright authorities to verify someone's assertion. We attempt to use common sense. We don't always get it right, but that's not a great excuse to beat us over the head and call us incompetent. You don't like it, make your own website.
I really wish that people would accept that everyone has responsibilities, not just the site (or its owner). Your assertion of your copyright to PCB artwork for example, and an implied license by posting it here, covers the site. Were we to get a complaint from an actual (or alleged) owner, we might, or might not, remove the disputed content and expect the poster, and the disputer, to resolve that amongst themselves. Given that anything done by a lawyer costs real money, I expect people will be careful about such assertions.
Now before you decide you want to assert copyright on everything here so we take everything down, I (and I'd imagine the other site admins) would direct you to substantiate your claims with the other posters. Remember, false DMCA claims are illegal - the fine can be "not more than $2,500" for each false assertion.
Here's Title 17, circular 92 chapter 5, which everyone should read because that's what we have to use as law here. Read section 512.
None of this says we can't arbitrarily remove something we find unethical or objectionable. The site is a privately owned resource.
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EGM: What does retro mean to you?
Parker: Like, old and outdated.
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Scott Stites
Janitor
Joined: Dec 23, 2005
Posts: 4127
Location: Mount Hope, KS USA
Audio files: 96
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:52 pm Post subject:
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| Quote: | | What some people do not understand is that a patent is a bargain with the state; an inventor is granted a patent, and receives legal protection for the invention, for a finite time, in exchange for a fee and on the condition that the invention is published. Disclosure is an essential part of the patent process. When the patent expires, the invention becomes public property, by law. It is not only lawful to use inventions in the public domain without permission, it is completely ethical. |
If not wholly unimaginative.
It is, of course, unfair of me to look upon these designs as something more than utilitarian in the sense that a pitchfork or an automobile would be considered utilitarian. It is my personal prejudice that a device such as the VCS-3 is just as much a work of art as it is a tool. As a precise tool, it would be considered abysmal; therefore the need to recreate it is centered upon the inadequacies that make it so uniquely wonderful.
I've seen this silly "if X invented this and Y used that in his invention, then by your logic Y is unethical" argument so many times I wonder if there is some vast font of soothing guilt cream hidden in a place on the net that I'm overlooking. As far as I'm concerned, directly copying a unique design long after a patent has expired or it has become "public domain", then reaping profit from said device for yourself will never shed that tinge of advantage-taking in my eyes. You have to ask yourself, if EMS had not created the product, would you have created it yourself then? The answer is very likely "no".
I have no problem if someone wants to build one for himself. It rubs me wrong to see an obvious copy, without a lick of innovation, "marketed" with only a nod in the general direction of the creator.
If you ask me, Synth-DIY too often gets confused with a brand of Synth-CIY marketed by gentlemen who invariably refer to themselves in the plural.
I'm speaking from personal ethics and not from any legal point of view, nor the views of the admin of this site.
Anyone may feel free to parse each sentence of this post to point out the minutiae of my hypocrisy and poor logic. I assure you, it won't change the way I feel.
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Don Erskine
Joined: Jun 17, 2010
Posts: 41
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:31 am Post subject:
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Demian has been treated disgracefully. I suggest that those concerned consider the 'ethics' of defaming someone.
From the PMs I have received i am not alone in thinking this. |
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2thick4uni
Joined: Feb 20, 2009
Posts: 113
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:42 pm Post subject:
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| Quote: | | Demian has been treated disgracefully. I suggest that those concerned consider the 'ethics' of defaming someone. |
I agree. Why he was flamed and humiliated just for trying to organise a group buy of knobs quite legitimately from the original manufacturer is a total mystery to me. Apart from anything else it would have been very helpful to anyone restoring a VCS3 or Synthi as missing / damaged knobs is a common problem.
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TekniK
Joined: Aug 10, 2008
Posts: 1059
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:19 am Post subject:
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| EdisonRex wrote: | | TekniK wrote: | @SiteAdmin, For commercial sold kits and/or there support subforums here and/pcb offerings via the forum aswell, did you asked (or got) a physical proof from the designers or owners of those circuits to verifie what 'you' (read the forum owner) support is legal?
Or are you just satisfied with a claim writen anywhere, they have had permisson to do it from the designer ,and based on that its 'comform the rules' here? |
Luckily the site can't really be held liable for mistakes made in good faith, we just have to correct them if they are pointed out. And most people here, with the exception of a few who seem to enjoy posing difficult to answer questions for whatever reasons, act in both good faith and good intentions. Which again goes back to ethics, not law. But I can't say that enough, apparently.
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Thanks for your reply,if i did asked this question its because i actualy can prove that at some (important) degree a person that the forum is supporting actualy lies,this lie is in relationship to other (important) claims that are aswell lies ,but these, i can not prove them (yet) (but we are working on it)
If you are interested in the subject i gladly inform you with the 'documents' in private via mail. |
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EdisonRex
Site Admin
Joined: Mar 07, 2007
Posts: 4579
Location: London, UK
Audio files: 172
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:44 am Post subject:
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Of course. Feel free to PM me.
_________________
Garret: It's so retro.
EGM: What does retro mean to you?
Parker: Like, old and outdated.
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digitana
Joined: Feb 25, 2011
Posts: 4
Location: st albans, U.K.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:05 pm Post subject:
Synthi HiFLi re-relase and IP..just to clarify |
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| Quote: | | FWIW, The recent announcement of the Synthi Hi-Fli, is also non-licenced- and according to Analogue Systems is not endorsed by EMS Ltd either. |
I know this thread is a bit old..but I just want to correct this seriously erroneous statement for the benefit of future readers.
As far as I am aware (and I apologise if I am wrong and that you are referring to someone else) I am the only person who is offering a commercial version of the Synthi HiFLi..so I believe in the above statement you are referring to me.
I am building the re-release Synthi HiFLi under license from E.M.S. (Cornwall)
with Robin's full consent and under a legally binding contract. Robin has been of invaluable help in getting the project to the production stage its at right now.
This was the case back in May 2010 when I announced the re-release HiFLi.
Your post including the above statement is dated Oct 2010.
I would therefore kindly request you refrain from repeating such statements that are potentially damaging to this enterprise and which might imply I am doing something underhand against the wishes of Robin/E.M.S.
Steve Thomas
Digitana Electronics |
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