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Time to puncture the schematics 'copyright' myth?
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Dougster



Joined: Sep 20, 2005
Posts: 272
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have been trying to avoid naming names, but it is *not* lamaymusic that I have been talking about. The product in that auction looks decent, and credit is given. If you're concerned about the legitimacy of that auction, then the best answer is to contact Ray about it.

So, just for grins, join the MIDIbox forum and tell them you bought a module on ebay from "Blue Lantern"...

/me hides behind the door

Regards,
Doug (All in good fun, mind you...)

EDIT: Sigh, looks like he got Ian as well: http://m.matrixsynth.com/2011/12/blue-lantern-16hp-dual-zero-thru-vco.html

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SubG (deactivated)



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Lantern sells official 'clones'

His work and products are totaly ligit

http://www.analoguehaven.com/bluelantern/

I never saw him selling a pcb that has been copied from exsistend Diy offers.
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Dougster



Joined: Sep 20, 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sigh. The prosecution rests.

Regards,
Doug (Didn't check with the MIDIbox guys did you...)

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EdisonRex
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here was the last time we discussed this subject in mid-October last year. The ending post I find very telling. If you can get past the sound of all of the axes grinding in the background, quite a bit of useful information comes out of it.

I am fairly certain there have been other discussions too. But what always seems to come up is that someone wants to sell circuits originally designed by others, brings up the fact (possibly a true fact) that said circuits are unprotected, and gets all shirty when people get mad about it.

If people used 28.35 grams of common sense, or were in any way deferential to, or cooperative with the designers, much of this wouldn't happen.

Fair Use. Remember what that means.

More info. Even quoting portions of the original material from that link here is fair use.

Most people here post their own schematics with the expectation that people will reproduce them and play with the circuits described within. Making a profit from products containing those circuits, most especially the original ones, without either permission or license from the designer of that circuit is ethically challenged at best. Building them for yourself isn't.

I think there's also a lot of outrage directed at people who are not perceived to have contributed anything to the community, yet wish to take from the community and profit from it. Some members of this community have spent upwards of 40 years designing circuits and giving to this community. It is completely understandable that they would be sensitive to this sort of behaviour.

WHEN IN DOUBT, ASK.

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kjackman



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks. Good to know that I was on the right track here, and lamaymusic doesn't appear to be doing anything wrong.

Thanks, EdisonRex, for the link to the previous thread as well.
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frijitz



Joined: May 04, 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dougster wrote:
EDIT: Sigh, looks like he got Ian as well: http://m.matrixsynth.com/2011/12/blue-lantern-16hp-dual-zero-thru-vco.html

Laughing Somebody paid $610 for it! Looks like he replaced the precision voltage references with cheap IC regulators. I got his thread at Muff's shut down. Does anyone know how to reach the Matrixsynth guy these days? I don't see any contact info.

Very Happy

Ian
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

SubG wrote:
Blue Lantern sells official 'clones'

His work and products are totaly ligit

http://www.analoguehaven.com/bluelantern/

I never saw him selling a pcb that has been copied from exsistend Diy offers.

This is all totally wrong.
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toppobrillo



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Somebody paid $610 for it!
Confused sorry ian, this guy has some issues. magic smoke somehow got him to stop selling thomas henry clones, u may remember so you might ask them about it.
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Dougster



Joined: Sep 20, 2005
Posts: 272
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:
Somebody paid $610 for it!

Refer to my previous post about obsessed people who have to have things!!!

Regards,
Doug (That's part of what made me cut way back on Stooge Panel production...)

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andrewF



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:
Does anyone know how to reach the Matrixsynth guy these days? I don't see any contact info.

Very Happy

Ian

he's here and on Muffs as "matrix"
Very Happy
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Tim Servo



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:04 pm    Post subject: Time to puncture the schematics 'copyright' myth? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

toppobrillo wrote:
Quote:
Somebody paid $610 for it!
Confused sorry ian, this guy has some issues. magic smoke somehow got him to stop selling thomas henry clones, u may remember so you might ask them about it.


This was a while ago, so I'm not sure I have the details 100%, or even if it was the same person. Still, as I recall, someone was selling a copy of the Mankato circuit in their own device. I wrote and told him to either reach a licensing agreement with me, or to stop using my design in his product. The Mankato is actually a design I purchased from Thomas (and put a fair amount of effort into extending with all eight outs, laying out the PCB, etc.), so I actually own it and - as far as I'm concerned - the manufacturing rights too. He stopped selling the device and so that was the end of that. Sorry I don't have any other wisdom to offer.

My take on the whole topic though, is that I think the SDIY community is really built on a lot of mutual admiration and respect. It's a big part of what makes this hobby so much fun. Generally, if you ASK first, people will let you use their designs for little or no fee for commercial use. Play nice, and we'll all have a lot more fun.

Tim (Kindergarten Ethics) Servo
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bubzy



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 3:26 am    Post subject: Re: Time to puncture the schematics 'copyright' myth? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
My take on the whole topic though, is that I think the SDIY community is really built on a lot of mutual admiration and respect. It's a big part of what makes this hobby so much fun. Generally, if you ASK first, people will let you use their designs for little or no fee for commercial use. Play nice, and we'll all have a lot more fun.

Tim (Kindergarten Ethics) Servo


i've done this with great results, if you are considerate enough to ask, most people are grateful enough to reciprocate.
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kaputtpanzer



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:
Dougster wrote:
EDIT: Sigh, looks like he got Ian as well: http://m.matrixsynth.com/2011/12/blue-lantern-16hp-dual-zero-thru-vco.html

Laughing Somebody paid $610 for it! Looks like he replaced the precision voltage references with cheap IC regulators. I got his thread at Muff's shut down. Does anyone know how to reach the Matrixsynth guy these days? I don't see any contact info.

Very Happy

Ian


matrixsynth@gmail.com
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MadScientist



Joined: Nov 28, 2011
Posts: 63
Location: Denmark

PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sorry about the belated reply, am finally back from my Christmas holiday. I'm a bit tired right now, so will read through the whole thread again very soon, hopefully tomorrow, then write a more thorough reply. However I just wanted to make some noise for now, to avoid any speculation about door slamming and whatnot. Wink

As a result I may have to amend part of what follows, once I get a chance to consider your arguments with a clear head. For now it seems not everyone even noticed my concern, so first a note from your sponsor:

Disclaimer(s):

*) I am emphatically *not* attempting to gain 'wiggle room' when it comes to the wholesale copying of other people's schematics, or the designs they depict. I did read a lot of what has been written in the forum about this subject, though I will check again to ensure I didn't miss something relating to what follows.

*) I repeat, monetary or prestige gain is not involved here, your precious schematics are safe, I won't clone your PCBs and sell them on ePay.

*) I did (do?) indeed have another E-M account, though I believe I was fairly clear about why I made the second one: I cannot locate the login information on the other one (if it even exist), and I don't even remember how much I used it, if at all. I will be happy to help the admin's locate it, and have it linked with this one, if this is a concern.

(Tip to admins: If it exists, then the email *domain* associated with it will be the same one as for this account. While a few other people also have emails on this domain, I would be extremely surprised if any among them has an E-M account.)

End disclaimers. (May need more...?)

----

The reason why I made the initial post in this thread, is that I believe the consistent focus on copyright, whether based in legality or morale, hurts the community more than it helps.

The copyright 'myth' I am talking about, is the combined effect of the many issues already raised in this thread by myself and others: Regardless of the details, then it is not really enforceable by mere mortals, even when applicable.

Secondly, then the availability of schematics - or the lack of same - won't really deter determined copycats, who has commercial gain as their motivation. They can simply reverse engineer the actual widget, at least as long as no MCU firmware is involved. An inexperienced copycat may be helped by having schematics and PCB layouts handed to him on a silver platter, but I'd argue such an individual won't be too successful in his endeavours if he actually needs them.

By publicly focusing on copyright, the community elders with 40 years' worth of experience are teaching the newcomers to do the same. As a direct result many utterly trivial schematics are assigned 'community copyright' unopposed, which makes it virtually impossible to make *anything* of note without stepping on somebody's toes. Mind you, I am not talking about easily identifiable schematics like the Moog lowpass filter. But what about the lone 4000 series CMOS IC plus the odd handful of passive components?

There are many examples of having the community copyright directly suppress further development and experimentation, assuming the experimenter actually intend to respect the wishes of his peers. I will post more - and especially more detailed - examples soon. Think I have been rambling sufficiently for one night... Embarassed

Frank.
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Dougster



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

MadScientist wrote:
your precious schematics are safe

Sorry dude, at least with me, you're not winning points with phrases like that. (The forum says you're in Denmark, but I don't know your country and/or language of origin. You seem to have a good grasp of English, so I assume you understand the implications of the word "precious" in this context. I also assume you understand the pejorative nature of my use of the term "dude"...)

Quote:
The copyright 'myth' I am talking about, is the combined effect of the many issues already raised in this thread by myself and others: Regardless of the details, then it is not really enforceable by mere mortals, even when applicable.

I view this as different from what you originally posted. My interpretation is:

First post: copyrights don't exist.

This post: oh, well, maybe they exist, but they're unenforceable.

These are two quite different things.

Quote:
Secondly, then the availability of schematics - or the lack of same - won't really deter determined copycats

There will always be a very small number of people like this in just about every area of life. I believe they are "fringe" cases and may not even be worth discussing.

Quote:
By publicly focusing on copyright, the community elders with 40 years' worth of experience are teaching the newcomers to do the same.

I don't see a problem with claiming authorship of something, provided you are the author of course. Copyright is merely that claim formalized. Copyright doesn't say you can't do anything with the knowledge. Simplistically, copyright says that you have to get permission to use the material. Asking is the polite thing to do. If you don't ask, you are labeled "Does not play well with others."

Regards,
Doug

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jojjelito



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Debating the legal aspects is one thing, not many of us enthusiasts are large corporate entities or have our own legal staff. I think Doug summarized things succinctly: Ask permission, be courteous and do your best to acknowledge the endeavors of others.

The only thing hurting the DIY community is when the makers/inventors get ripped off. This will hamper the free flow of information, but such is life. You can't force people to cooperate - play well with them and you'll be rewarded.

Still, please provide some examples - I'm sure there's overzealous copyright claiming going on as well on the other side of the fence. Still, people are only trying to protect what's theirs.

Regards,
Johan
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SubG (deactivated)



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dougster wrote:
Asking is the polite thing to do. If you don't ask, you are labeled "Does not play well with others."

Regards,
Doug


So you did ask at Roland Japan headquarters and they gave you permission to clone and sell in masses their 808 circuits?

No offence,am just asking.
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

SubG wrote:
Dougster wrote:
Asking is the polite thing to do. If you don't ask, you are labeled "Does not play well with others."

Regards,
Doug


So you did ask at Roland Japan headquarters and they gave you permission to clone and sell in masses their 808 circuits?

But didid Roland ever ask anyone not to? The main issue is using stuff over the originators objections.

Very Happy

Ian
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

MadScientist wrote:
Sorry about the belated reply, am finally back from my Christmas holiday.

Back from your home on planet Trafalmagon? Your posts don't bear on anything I've heard of on Earth. Laughing

Quote:
An inexperienced copycat may be helped by having schematics and PCB layouts handed to him on a silver platter, but I'd argue such an individual won't be too successful in his endeavours if he actually needs them.

Hope you're right, but so far the evidence appears the opposite. (Re the continued success of BL)

Quote:
By publicly focusing on copyright, the community elders with 40 years' worth of experience are teaching the newcomers to do the same.

Again, where is the evidence for this constant focus on copyrights? And what's wrong with trying to teach newcomers some basic decency if they need it?

Quote:
As a direct result many utterly trivial schematics are assigned 'community copyright' unopposed, which makes it virtually impossible to make *anything* of note without stepping on somebody's toes.

Please show us these many schematics and your evidence for "community copyright".

Quote:
There are many examples of having the community copyright directly suppress further development and experimentation

Again, show us.

Your vague allegations and hit-and-run tactics are getting on my nerves. What on Earth are you talking about?

Very Happy

Ian
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SubG (deactivated)



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:
SubG wrote:
Dougster wrote:
Asking is the polite thing to do. If you don't ask, you are labeled "Does not play well with others."

Regards,
Doug


So you did ask at Roland Japan headquarters and they gave you permission to clone and sell in masses their 808 circuits?

But didid Roland ever ask anyone not to? The main issue is using stuff over the originators objections.

Very Happy

Ian



Doug wrote that asking is the polite thing to do,so i expect a reply from him on my question as he cloned and sell 808 circuits.
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

SubG wrote:
so i expect a reply from him on my question as he cloned and sell 808 circuits.

Playing silly gotcha games is not helpful. The context is clearly the DIY community.

Very Happy

Ian
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SubG (deactivated)



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Its not silly at all,i wait on the reply from Doug.

Your posts go out that he did not ask permission,but perhaps he did,i wait.
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MadScientist



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dougster wrote:
Sorry dude, at least with me, you're not winning points with phrases like that. (The forum says you're in Denmark, but I don't know your country and/or language of origin. You seem to have a good grasp of English, so I assume you understand the implications of the word "precious" in this context. I also assume you understand the pejorative nature of my use of the term "dude"...)

Well, actually, no, I probably wouldn't have noticed if you hadn't mentioned it. It is very nearly a practical impossibility to offend a native Dane through words alone. You are welcome to try though if you need to let off some steam, I won't mind. Very Happy

Some years ago an infamous Danish newspaper got in a bit of hot water due to the publication of a set of cartoons. Suspect you may have heard of the case.

At the time a high ranking Muslim cleric attempted to explain the outrage following the publication, suggesting that the Danish people would probably not be too happy about cartoons depicting - as way of example - the Danish queen in a state of undress and involved in various explicit situations with the Royal consort.

The Danish journalist had to explain to the fine cleric, that we do actually have a book of satirical cartoons published once a year, which on numerous occasions has printed exactly that. No-one in this country would think that is anything to get riled up about.

The next day one commentary read, that if we Danes actually put our minds to it and seriously attempted to offend the rest of the world, the result would probably be WW-III... Embarassed

I didn't think of any special connection when I used the word 'precious'. Maybe I was thinking of Gollum in Lords of the Ring, maybe I was just tired and not thinking in particular.

If you feel offended, then please forward an exhaustive list of all words and expressions, including relevant cultural references, which you find offensive. I will attempt to avoid them in the future. (This is supposed to be funny. If this issue is a major concern to you, then I will be happy to entertain a discussion on the subject of cultural differences in languages and culture, and the difficulties involved in obtaining a 1:1 translation.)

Dougster wrote:
I view this as different from what you originally posted. My interpretation is:

First post: copyrights don't exist.

This post: oh, well, maybe they exist, but they're unenforceable.

These are two quite different things.

Yes and no. I am fairly confident I know the practical details of copyright in connection with schematics as they are in mainland Europe, including a litmus test for the bogosity level within a particular argument. However I am also aware of the differences in the legal systems between - in particular - the US and England versus most of the rest of the world. Namely that in the US you practically have to research case law up to the minute to determine what is or isn't illegal.

Bottom line is that I suspect we won't agree on the details. Additionally, my arguments are not revolving around whether it is strictly illegal, only whether there exist a community enforced standard making it so, and the consequences of it. So I decided to drop the argument, meaning you can have it your way if it makes the rest of what I have to say easier to swallow.

Out of time for today, sorry Ian.

Frank.
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Dougster



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

SubG wrote:
Its not silly at all,i wait on the reply from Doug.

I did not have my lawyer draw up a contract with Roland if that is what you are asking. I did speak with three separate people in three separate departments at the same time as I ordered and paid for my *official* copy of the TR-808 service manual directly from Roland. I do not speak enough Japanese to effectively communicate with Roland Japan, so all of my communication was with Roland US. It would be an honor to talk to Mr. Nakamura, and I dare not dream of wasting Kakehashi-san's time with so trivial a request.

FWIW, I have also contacted PAiA about an upgrade to the Fatman design, and I plan to contact Peter about a new Milton sequencer if I can ever track him down again. (I haven't heard from him since I offered to buy Plan B when he was in deep trouble a while back.)

Regards,
Doug

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EdisonRex
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

SubG wrote:
Its not silly at all,i wait on the reply from Doug.

Your posts go out that he did not ask permission,but perhaps he did,i wait.


I was wondering when you would be back, Teknik. Cool

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EGM: What does retro mean to you?
Parker: Like, old and outdated.


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