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today> Muied Lumens Frequencies
 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » WREN
FL ASIO and Wren
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:59 pm    Post subject: FL ASIO and Wren Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

People have been mentioning issues with FL Studio's ASIO driver and Wren. That information is now spread over a couple of threads, so decided to try to bundle it a bit ... Laughing

I've just downloaded FL Studio, and decided not to install ASIO4ALL. With this I can reproduce some of the mentioned problems.

The 32 bit version of Wren will not run at all when FL Studio is installed .. with using the FL ASIO driver .. period Shocked

The (experimental, to be released later) 64 bit version of Wren will run, but I need to quit FL Studio for that to be possible or so it seems. Once Wren runs ok, it will keep running when FL Studio is started. But once FL Studio runs Wren can not find any audio devices.

I'll need to experiment a bit more with this ... some strange stuff going on.

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Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Also .. from the 64 bit version of Wren I can select FL ASIO as the output driver, and this will work, using the rerouting as set up for FL ASIO.

When I then start FL studio .. Wren refuses to open any audio channels.

So erm .. this is going to be interesting :-)

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Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Also FL messes with my screen brightness levels Shocked where the hell did they get that idea Evil or Very Mad

I'm going to just uninstall FL for now ... using it for some tests only . .will reinstall then.

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Anyways .. PortAudio does not seem to be very robust against FL ASIO, I'll need to get some µSoft licensing stuff fixed for Visual studio to be able to do something about that ... later ;-)
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, renewed the Visual Studio license .. and:

I recompiled PortAudio and seem to have something working now for the Wren 64 bit version and FL ASIO installed ... going to fiddle a bit more .. but it plays a demo track in FL now and it plays a Wren patch .. where Wren runs at 48k and FL at 44k1 .. so that seems not too bad.

The 32 bit Wren version, on PortAudio initialization, however, generates a division by zero in C:\Program Files\image-line\fl studio asio\ilwasapi2asio.dll .. so that looks a lot like a big fat bug there in FL ASIO ... maybe I can catch it .. but unfortunaltely PortAudio is not C++ but plain C ...

As said, will fiddle a bit more.

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Okay .. the FL ASIO driver is just unusable in 32 bit mode, I'v BlackListed it for Win32 mode. Other available drivers should still be available then (in my case ASIO FireFace USB). This gives me a working solution, but Wren 32 will not be able to use FL ASIO.

Just a lil bit more fiddling to be done, getting somewhere at least Laughing

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've got two versions now, a 64 bit one and a 32 bit one that can both co-exist with FL Studio using the FL Studio ASIO driver. The 32 bit version can not use FL Studio ASIO (as I've made it invisible), the 64 bit version can maybe use it (as I've kept it visible) - but I did not test that.

What I did test was to keep FL studio using FL Studio ASIO running a demo at 44k1 and running Wren alongside at 48k using the RME Fireface USB ASIO driver.

I will make two releases later today (32 and 64 bit) - to be announced in the usual place.

When things still do not work for some .. I've made debug versions of the PortAudio DLL as well, some diagnostics can be generated with these (they will not be in the releases, as they will need debug versions of Wren too .. and those are (un)pretty slow).


That's it for now - not unhappy Laughing

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boaone



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi BLUEHELL. Sorry for the delay.
Here is log generated by that debug version with "FL ASIO" installed . Sorry for delay.
Nice to see some new modules on the way. Do you have discord maybe ? Because i don't want to make offtops here and there. I saw some wave modules on your site and catch you dont know for what it can be usefull. I can bring you some nice examples and ideas about this type of synthesis but dont want mess on forum with offtop discussions.
Some beta channel to report bugs or something like this ? SLACK or Discord is nice and reachable from web browser or anything. Just sayin Wink.


wren_debug.txt
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for the log!

It shows the exact same issue as the log posted by sergio_frias_23 did - and after installing FL I was able to reproduce it here too with the same log results

No Discord or SLACK here .. but feel free to start a topic in http://electro-music.com/forum/forum-230.html Smile

Oh .. kitchen beeps! pizza is ready Smile

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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boaone



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok. I understand. But I have to admit that it 's been a few years since I stopped using a classical forum on a daily basis. And it's hard to go back to that. Im using miranda ng with multiple protocols. I dont like fancy cpu memory hogging stuff too when mobile. One more offtop (sorry). I tested the new module "loopplayer". And I must admit it is excellent. 1 hour on heavy tests and playing smoothly and light on cpu.
Nice work.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Laughing

I should have hidden that loopplayer .. it's just meant as a test thingie .. functionally equivalent to the wavePlayer ... except the latter has no wave display or cursor.

And I was disappointed a bit by the speed .. when I load a 10 minute wave into it patching becomes slow .. for the time it takes to read in the wave each time something is changed in the patch ... maybe a wave cache would be handy (in memory) .. it already has an image cache (on disk) .. without the latter it was really fokking slow Rolling Eyes

Ok .. I have relases to build .. and promised someone a bit of Clavia G2 help .. ow .. and strawberries to eat Cool

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boaone



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes i know. Wave sequencing is very heavy. There is no software for that actually that is resonable by means of cpu and memory except one that is old E-MU emulator-x modular sampler stuff and ensoniq hardware from where E-MU take this technology. But i think there is no point for waves larger than 8 or 16 MB in this type of thing because in modular system it will crash in a moment and take any type type of cpu when more polyphony involved. It is only huge step further from single cycle waves synthesis by PPG. Major problem in this are cross zero point samples and phase issues. Im still dreaming about ensoniq hyperwaves in vst or proper software with some automatic micro fade in and out to cure clipping without thinking ahead about every zero cross. Here is nice video what can be done with that type synthesis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGfWdQjyFc0&t=1s
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Some nice sounds there yes .. but damn .. how complicated do you want it ;-)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Damn .. in 64 bit mode it can still give a division by zero - I've just disabled FL Studio ASIO always.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't want to be insolent because it is your hard work and it is free and it isnt easy function i think. But i can think about it and share some ideas if you want dive into it. In ensoniq was one small little display. I think display take to much cpu with heavy looping. One display with number off loop will be enough. For start if i want to do module like this i will start with transwave function and later add something eventually. There was not too many parameters really for one layer for transwaves. Only one specified loop lenght by user with sample precision and loop jump with countinous play of wave between. And modulation insert for it. Thats all about transwave for start i think. rest you can do with audio editor HYPERWAVES are more complicated though. (*edit) continous play of loops one after another i direction of modulation point.
Last edited by boaone on Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

But there is major problem here. Phase issues that occurs with clipping. And it is doubled with stereo waves. Killer addition that i think of is some pre analizing function for i dont know really about 256 loops or something that correcting zero point crossings automatically to play loops smooth without clipping.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

update made, see: http://electro-music.com/forum/post-445361.html#445361
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Excellent Laughing . I feel overall everything working much faster with x64 version and lower on cpu on same patches. There is one thing that bother me a little in wren. I observed recently when doing something in "TASSMAN". Sine wave oscillator sounds differently when modulated slowly. Much more like real analog.
It's not complaint really but something i observed accidentally. Maybe because resolution of steps i don't know. Anyway great too see x64 version not history like with VAZ.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah it was about twice as fast on patches I tried (like 30 to 50 .. some old ones too), it uses a bit more memory though .. but there is more memory available in 64 bit apps too, and the exe is 50% larger or so.

Re. "more analog" .. heh .. on audio rate modulation?

Edit: o .. slowly you said .. in that case maybe .. you can change the control rate division in the settings screen F3 ..or can try to use the control to audio rate module .. which only makes sense for red inputs controlled with blue modulations. There also is an audio typed LFO .. could be smoother too.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It's my mistake. I checked this now again and it is true they sound diffrent but tassman have maximum freq of 4095 hz and wrem more than 3x more bandwith. When i limit this sound is more similar. Sorry for my stupidity Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Changed sample rate to 96000 and its even better. I think that was aliasing at 48000 sample rate at high frq. "analog" in that sense smoother change in frq, more pleasant. But in that big band range it is not surprising at 48000. And yes i know how analog sine actually reacting with lfo Wink. It is not that "analog" word Cool .
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes i must dive deeper into those modules. I think i used maybe 15% from pallete to this day with some kind of sense. Wren is higly addictive.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Heh .. now that its almost twice as fast .. yeah you could goto 96k too for a lot of patches .. I think that I'll end up using it for /larger/ patches .. but also there would be some room now for modules doing internal up/down sampling.

Anyways .. did it solve your FL ASIO issues too?

Edit: o .. 15% .. yeah .. even I dont use all that stuff all that often ...

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

96000 Is Possible with wren at 2ms latency but with daw and some plugins not really good solution for my old xeon. Oh i forgot. Yes i've installed "FL ASIO" driver and wren see audio devices without any problem without flasio like intended.
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