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illuminated
Joined: Jun 19, 2005
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 Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject:
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Tim Kleinert
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:31 am Post subject:
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| skiptracer wrote: | | tim wrote: | My problem with all this stuff is that it is so damn easy to do.
Hence I don't see what is worthwile in attending such a performance. |
That, my friend, is simply completely wrong.
Just like all forms of music, BAD noise is easy to do (feedback loops, effects etc.)
By the same token, anybody can download some "ACID Loops" and make a stompin' house tune in a few minutes. Or load an amen break into a Reaktor performance patch and come out with glitch drum n bass madness that took innovators hours and hours to painstakingly program.
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I completely agree. And I think there is a deep lesson to be learned from this fact. Technology, by making everything easier, isn't increasing meaning. It is decreasing it. Brave new world. 
| Quote: | | You might consider listening to some sound that appears Anthology of Noise and Electronic Music series released by Sub Rosa. Some of it sounds like some dude in 1966 futzing with a modular in a laboratory, but most of it is completely mind blowing. Just like all great music, you think two things : "i wish i thought of that" and "how the fuck did they get that sound?" |
Well -here is where we part. Sound in itself is not music, in my opinion. It's a means to an end, not the end itself. I know this is a strange notion to behold within the field of electronic music, because electronic music seems to be all about the emancipation of sound and timbre as a primary musical entity.
But as long as mothers sing melodies to their crying infants rather than imitate filter sweeps with their mouth, I won't change my position.
| Quote: |
Point:
Making noise is like anything. You put more into it, you'll get more out of it. The more you practice with a feedback loop, the better you'll get at it. |
Oh, I completely agree. You can also become better at balancing on your nose upon a 100ft flagpole. You can transcend anything. But that doesn't necessarily make it meaningful beyond the fact that it is difficult to do.
| Quote: | | I'm used to discussions where it's a given that noise is a form of high art, whatever that means. |
"Whatever that means"... ...that's the point! It doesn't mean much anymore.
That's the price you pay for a contemporary pluralistic "anything can be art" attitude.
*takes cover* |
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illuminated
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:19 am Post subject:
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elektro80
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:31 am Post subject:
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Clearly Cage was on a mission, and he could write entertaining text. Little of what I have read of his stuff is however truly original. I like to call him the "Liberace of the avant-garde".
| skiptracer wrote: | | "The first question I ask myself when something doesn't seem to be beautiful is why do I think it's not beautiful. And very shortly you discover that there is no reason." |
He always tended to state many of his visions this way. In the case of this particular quote he was of course grandly mistaken, and I am sure he knew that himself. There are reasons why some noise/music/whatever isn´t percieved as being beautiful. Some of these are of course contextually related to culture.
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elektro80
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:47 am Post subject:
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| tim wrote: | | Quote: | | I'm used to discussions where it's a given that noise is a form of high art, whatever that means. |
"Whatever that means"... ...that's the point! It doesn't mean much anymore.
That's the price you pay for a contemporary pluralistic "anything can be art" attitude.
*takes cover* |
No need to take cover. This is a perfectly valid statement.
Apart from the obvious, which is that art is only what is being curated as art, is the fact that some of the "anything can be art" crowd are really not claiming "anything can be art". What they are really doing is discussing the nature of art. Perhaps this is a bit too retro these days. This was an early 60s US marxist academic art fad. The same rush happened before and just after the first world war here in Europe.
The most interesting thing at the moment is the starting neo-symbolic wave.
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illuminated
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:50 am Post subject:
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illuminated
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:03 am Post subject:
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illuminated
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:11 am Post subject:
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elektro80
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:34 am Post subject:
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| skiptracer wrote: | | Well I don't think Cage was a postmodernist. His statements are made with disregard of cultural and popular opinion. |
He isn´t postmodernist as such, but I have read many intersting discussions of how he wasn´t a modernist and rather was pointing to postmodernism. I won´t go there. However, I hardly think Cage was disregarding popular opinion. He was one excellent salesman of all things Cage. A point to make is that he was an excellent educator and the lack of originality doesn´t really matter much. His stuff is much more fun to read than say Adorno´s and I think Cage made much more sense anyway.
| skiptracer wrote: | | Could you pick something that you think is not beautiful and describe why it is not beautiful without saying something like "it is not beautiful because it looks like other things that are not beautiful / it does not look like things that are beautiful"? |
I am not all that into the whole beauty craze, so I am not the right guy to ask.
| skiptracer wrote: | | What are some reasons that are not related to culture? |
The obvious would be some of the sound art stuff. First you break down form as to not even having a piece of music, then you break down this further to the point where the audio is only audio. I have seen some excellent installations and the audio part was amazing. It wasn´t music though, but that didn´t bother me much.
| skiptracer wrote: | | I get the feeling that many of you on this website are very quick to pass off new ideas and "experimentalism" because you view it as "experimentalism for experimentalism's sake". Just because it sounds bad to your ears at first and you take the theories and disclaimers for "pretentiousness" doesn't mean you're justified in being close-minded. Of course it's your choice to be close minded if you want, but in my opinion, blind ignorance is something worth crusading against, if just for pleasure. |
You forgot the *takes cover* part 
Check out the site a bit more and make up your mind later.
However, do not forget that it is possible to enjoy and even make weirdish stuff and at the same time be willing to discuss these matters critically. BTW, if you like Cage´s music, then you should buy the brilliant Once Festival CD box|. That one is TRULY great.
--
| skiptracer wrote: | | In cultural context, noise and art can be justified easily by theories. |
Very true. But by now this academic trend is getting so damned tired.
| skiptracer wrote: |
Disregarding culture, you come to realize that liking noise is the same thing as liking music, it is merely a choice you make. Cage's point is that you should cast off the many thick layers of cultural influence that are keeping you from appreciating and loving sound in the world. . |
I can understand others might think this, but personally I think the "liking noise is the same thing as liking music" is a completely irrelevant angle. But the "appreciating and loving sound in the world" is great. Sure. Cage was an educator and the most important thing he did was selling the idea of contemporary music.
You should be aware that I am not really against "music that tends to sound like noise". In some other threads I have been noted to be the sick dude that does in fact appreciate noise. My comments here have been regarding Cage.
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ryansupak
Joined: Sep 13, 2005
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:46 am Post subject:
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The description of that show uncannily reminds me of shows that I (end up) play(ing) on about a bi-weekly basis.
They're typically unrehearsed -- or close to it -- and some traits they usually have deal with the ideas of "what is music" and "what is a presentation":
* no clear beginning and end -- one thing i usually do is play along with the club's backing music during soundcheck and that makes the starting point for the improvisation
* "stage manners" are not important -- i tend to spend about half the time asleep behind the speakers, or laying on the ground under my piano tapping out a simple motif, or getting a glass of water. sometimes i'll call people on the phone and use our conversation as source material
* occupying a space between "music" and "not music"
What's most astounding is that the more alienating and unengaging I imagine it to be, the more people seem to like it -- I recently played a show with all dreamy ColdPlay-type soprano crooners, and then we did our thing, and behoodied MySpacers wouldn't stop singing its praises afterwards. ??
So, yeah. Unfortunately no overarching point to this, just some anecdotes...
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elektro80
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:47 am Post subject:
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| skiptracer wrote: | Bottom bottom line:
I used to listen to only "music". I started hearing about this "noise". It intrigued me. I read about it. I liked the theories and ideas. Now I listen to it and love it just as I love so called "music". And I love everything in between. |
I am sure a fair number of the active members are in fact agreeing with you.
| skiptracer wrote: | | Really what I think it is is an emphasis on timbre and sound rather than melody and structure. I think it is a liberating and powerful experience to learn to appreciate and *enjoy* all areas of the spectrum. Naturally you don't HAVE to learn to like a broad spectrum of sound and ideas, but I don't think there is ANY justification for simply ignoring a good portion of your chosen art form. Fear, ignorance, closed-mindedness, and laziness are your motives. Laziness is the only one that can sort of be justified... apathy? nihilism? |
Euphoric nihilism is underrated these days. A shame really. Anyways, noise is not noise as little as music can be said to be music. If you spend more time here, and I really hope you do, then you will figure out that this community is open minded and .. we like discussions.
| skiptracer wrote: | | *applies war paint* |
Any pix? 
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elektro80
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:51 am Post subject:
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| skiptracer wrote: |
Saying "Whatever that means"... ...that's the point! It doesn't mean much anymore." is not saying much. It never DID mean anything. It's all fads. It's all culture. It's all ideas. We're all just homo sapiens living, breathing, eating, and fucking. |
Cool. That would be this one.. http://www.sofasound.com/vdgcds/gbcd.htm
and this one:
http://www.sofasound.com/vdgcds/slcd.htm
Check out the links to the lyrics.
Top notch stuff. "The Baader Meinhof of dark prog".
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elektro80
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:54 am Post subject:
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| ryansupak wrote: | | What's most astounding is that the more alienating and unengaging I imagine it to be, the more people seem to like it |
Is this a crowd that can be flown in on a short notice?
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ryansupak
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:21 am Post subject:
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| I think a good portion of the audience probably doesn't have many day-to-day responsibilities, so probably so :D |
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illuminated
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:26 am Post subject:
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ryansupak
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:58 am Post subject:
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I do stuff like that hopefully not to say "I am an Artiste and I am bored to be here" -- but to say "This should be just as casual as hanging around in somebody's living room playing acoustic guitar".
I've never understood the "audience/emoting performer" paradigm...why can't it just be something that happens on its own terms?
$0.01,
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elektro80
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:00 am Post subject:
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| ryansupak wrote: | | I think a good portion of the audience probably doesn't have many day-to-day responsibilities, so probably so |
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elektro80
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:16 am Post subject:
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| skiptracer wrote: | | I misjudged your motives. |
I noticed.
Anyways...
Postmodernists on Jerry Springer
Todd: Hi, Jerry.
Jerry: (reading from card) So, Todd, you're here to tell your girlfriend something. What is it?
Todd: Well, Jerry, my girlfriend Ursula and I have been going out for three years now. We did everything together. We were really inseparable. But then she discovered post-Marxist political and literary theory, and it's been nothing but fighting ever since.
Jerry: Why is that?
Todd: You see, Jerry, I'm a traditional Cartesian rationalist. I believe that the individual self, the "I" or ego is the foundation of all metaphysics. She, on the other hand, believes that the contemporary self is a socially constructed, multi-faceted subjectivity reflecting the political and economic realities of late capitalist consumerist discourse.
Crowd: Ooooohhhh!
Todd: I know! I know! Is that infantile, or what?
Jerry: So what do you want to tell her today?
Todd: I want to tell her that unless she ditches the post-modernism, we're through. I just can't go on having a relationship with a woman who doesn't believe I exist.
Jerry: Well, you're going to get your chance. Here's Ursula!
Ursula storms onstage and charges up to Todd.
Ursula: Patriarchal colonizer!
She slaps him viciously. Todd leaps up, but the security guys pull them apart before things can go any further.
Ursula: Don't listen to him! Logic is a male hysteria! Rationality equals oppression and the silencing of marginalized voices!
Todd: The classical methodology of rational dialectic is our only road to truth! Don't try to deny it!
Ursula: You and your dialectic! That's how it's been through our whole relationship, Jerry. Mindless repetition of the post-Enlightenment meta-narrative. "You have to start with radical doubt, Ursula." "Post-structuralism is just classical sceptical thought re-cast in the language of semiotics, Ursula."
Crowd: Booo! Booo!
Jerry: Well, Ursula, come on. Don't you agree that the roots of contemporary neo-Leftism simply have to be sought in Enlightenment political philosophy?
Ursula: History is the discourse of powerful centrally located voices marginalizing and de-scribing the sub-altern!
Todd: See what I have to put up with? Do you know what it's like living with someone who sees sex as a metaphoric demonstration of the anti-feminist violence implicit in the discourse of the dominant power structure? It's terrible. She just lies there and thinks of Andrea Dworkin. That's why we never do it any more.
Crowd: Wooooo!
Ursula: You liar! Why don't you tell them how you haven't been able to get it up for the past three months because you couldn't decide if your penis truly had essential Being, or was simply a manifestation of Mind?
Todd: Wait a minute! Wait a minute!
Ursula: It's true!
Jerry: Well, I don't think we're going to solve this one right away. Our next guests are Louis and Tina. And Tina has a little confession to make!
Louis and Tina come onstage. Todd and Ursula continue bickering in the background.
Jerry: Tina, you are... (reads cards) ... an existentialist, is that right?
Tina: That's right, Jerry. And Louis is, too.
Jerry: And what did you want to tell Louis today?
Tina: Jerry, today I want to tell him...
Jerry: Talk to Louis. Talk to him.
Crowd hushes.
Tina: Louis... I've loved you for a long time...
Louis: I love you, too, Tina.
Tina: Louis, you know I agree with you that existence precedes essence, but...well, I just want to tell you I've been reading Nietzsche lately, and I don't think I can agree with your egalitarian politics any more.
Crowd: Wooooo! Woooooo!
Louis: (shocked and disbelieving) Tina, this is crazy. You know that Sartre clarified all this way back in the 40's.
Tina: But he didn't take into account Nietzsche's radical critique of democratic morality, Louis. I'm sorry. I can't ignore the contradiction any longer!
Louis: You got these ideas from Victor, didn't you? Didn't you?
Tina: Don't you bring up Victor! I only turned to him when I saw you were seeing that dominatrix! I needed a real man! An Uber-man!
Louis: (sobbing) I couldn't help it. It was my burden of freedom. It was too much!
Jerry: We've got someone here who might have something to add. Bring out...Victor!
Victor enters. He walks up to Louis and sticks a finger in his face.
Victor: Louis, you're a classic post-Christian intellectual. Weak to the core!
Louis: (through tears) You can kiss my Marxist ass, Reactionary Boy!
Victor: Herd animal!
Louis: Lackey!
Louis throws a chair at Victor; they lock horns and wrestle. The crowd goes wild. After a long struggle, the security guys pry them apart.
Jerry: Okay, okay. It's time for questions from the audience. Go ahead, sir.
Audience member: Okay, this is for Tina. Tina, I just wanna know how you can call yourself an existentialist, and still agree with Nietzsche's doctrine of the Ubermensch. Doesn't that imply a belief in intrinsic essences that is in direct contradiction with the fundamental principles of existentialism?
Tina: No! No! It doesn't. We can be equal in potential, without being equal in eventual personal quality. It's a question of Becoming, not Being.
Audience member: That's just disguised essentialism! You're no existentialist!
Tina: I am so!
Audience member: You're no existentialist!
Tina: I am so an existentialist, bitch!
Ursula stands and interjects.
Ursula: What does it [bleep] matter? Existentialism is just a cover for late capitalist anti-feminism! Look at how Sartre treated Simone de Beauvoir!
Women in the crowd cheer and stomp.
Tina: [Bleep] you! Fat-ass Foucaultian ho!
Ursula: You only wish you were smart enough to understand Foucault, bitch!
Tina: You the bitch!
Ursula: No, you the bitch!
Tina: Whatever! Whatever!
Jerry: We'll be right back with a final thought! Stay with us!
Commercial break for debt-consolidation loans, ITT Technical Institute, and Psychic Alliance Hotline.
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rnp
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:25 am Post subject:
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| ryansupak wrote: | I do stuff like that hopefully not to say "I am an Artiste and I am bored to be here" -- but to say "This should be just as casual as hanging around in somebody's living room playing acoustic guitar".
I've never understood the "audience/emoting performer" paradigm...why can't it just be something that happens on its own terms?
$0.01,
rs |
I definitely agree with this and have experienced the problems associated with it firsthand. there's a lot of strategies that can help facilitate that relationship - charging a cover fee definitely isn't one of them though. a living room is free.. and if someone walks up and joins in (think digeridoo or bongo - at least these are the ones I see around here) it shouldn't be a problem. and I've been there and know how annoying someone drumming his superfast bongo lines over a minimal groove can be. 
also, in my opinion, the agressive nature of noise doesn't lend itself well to the acoustic guitar analogy. I think there's a certain attitude attached to the scene (at least here in .de) that is very happy with the situation of power over the audience. as a celebration of raw acoustic power if you will. plus, some - think Ant-Zen like powernoise - put on quite the stageshow in the vein of rave techno.
mind you, I'm not a noise artist, but I've witnessed them and can appreciate it - one of the Coil gigs I saw was far better in terms of textured noise than anything I've seen anywhere else though.
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undrachievr
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 11:46 am Post subject:
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that jerry springer dialogue was nice to read.
personally, i find myself fighting with information overload a lot, lately.
philosophy, psychology, melodic music - they all become too much, it feels like i am suffocating. at times like this, any new 'noise' that can block the unwanted, is welcome.
especially with the internet around, there is so much useful information, so many interesting theories, so many movements.... aaaaaahrg.
maybe i try to solve too much life with only my mind, because the body is subject to so many restrictions, whereas the mind knows no limits of movement, anymore. :shrug:
jealous that you got to see coil, rnp... enjoy their music very much.
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illuminated
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:55 pm Post subject:
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Kassen
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:08 pm Post subject:
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| ryansupak wrote: |
What's most astounding is that the more alienating and unengaging I imagine it to be, the more people seem to like it |
Are you surprised?
I think they *want* to be aliented. After a week at the office/ factory/ school/ whatever the very last thing people will want to pay for is realism. Some people escape towards a idealised image of the world; A club (implying it's closed) where everybody is beautifull (or at least tries to be) where colours and sound are carefully controlled by trained profesionals and preferably when "undesireables" are stoped at the door.
Instead of flat out denying the mundane world and replacing it temporarily with a fake one I think "anti-music" questions it but to me the escapism seems a constant. More alienation equals better escapism so you can bet that it's better apreceated. I predict that a future disco club where all visitors are made to look like pornstars by use of holograms would be extremely popular, in the same way I predict that if you were to include magic tricks in your anti music performances this would be very well received. Take the electric toothbrush to the amped guitar, then make it disapear or better yet; change it into a dove at the end of the musical passage.
*Especially* for Myspacers, if the people on Myspace would like reality they wouldn't need to meet through a computer network; what's wrong with the pub around the corner?
I'm suddenly wondering which form of escapism has the best (healthyest?) long term effects. Standing in front of the mirror, monday night, the club-goer can't present herself as so perfect anymore and neither can her new boyfriend; once again they have to make do without escapism, the dishes are a more prominent factor in their existance then the way they hold their coctail. The anti-music fanatic, in front of a similar mirror might find brushing his teeth is now quite a bit more interesting; listen how rithmical it is, good thing it doesn't change into a dove....
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Tim Kleinert
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:24 pm Post subject:
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Gee -this discussion has grown in my absence. Don't know if I'll manage to plug into everything said in the meantime.
But I do feel tempted to have a stab at those Cage quotes.
| skiptracer wrote: | "throws grenade"
Here are a few John Cage quotes:
"The first question I ask myself when something doesn't seem to be beautiful is why do I think it's not beautiful. And very shortly you discover that there is no reason." |
Oh well, then let's just go to an airport and sit right next to the jet engine of a Boeing747 (140dB). No reason, sure.
| Quote: | | "Which is more musical: a truck passing by a factory or a truck passing by a music school?" |
Just a pseudo Zen-koan-like clever-dick question which sounds meaningful while signifying nothing.
| Quote: | | "If you develop an ear for sounds that are musical it is like developing an ego. You begin to refuse sounds that are not musical and that way cut yourself off from a good deal of experience." |
Well then, please explain: How can you experience something without an ego?
No, sir. If Mr.Cage really understood the mystical teaching of Zen buddhism (which he repeatedly (ab)used as a basis for his position) he would have known that experience is the direct result of ego. No ego, no experience.
And it's the ego that wants experience in the first case. So if Cage argues that experience is desirable, he already takes the desiring ego-position he is trying to debunk. Ha ha.
I'm sorry, but Cage is a joke. I don't understand how anybody could ever take him seriously.
*Where's my atomic bunker?* |
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undrachievr
Joined: Oct 18, 2005
Posts: 4
Location: Hamburg, Germany
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:26 pm Post subject:
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| Kassen wrote: | | ryansupak wrote: |
What's most astounding is that the more alienating and unengaging I imagine it to be, the more people seem to like it |
The anti-music fanatic, in front of a similar mirror might find brushing his teeth is now quite a bit more interesting; listen how rithmical it is, good thing it doesn't change into a dove.... |
funny of you to mention that - every time i brush my teeth, it seem musical to me and i start playing around with rhythm and pitch. i also like paying attention to the fact that a lot of the sound travels through my teeth and my skull. great fun. not really an anti-music fanatic, though. 
although i do agree with what you are saying about escapism, viewing action in terms of escape, depends largely on perspective, too.
seeing escapism might have more to do with your own relation to escapism than that of what you are observing...
sorry if this didn't make sense. am tired and just finished watching 'izo' again. kind of an anti-movie, come to think of it. anyone seen it?
_________________
the soul is more than the hum of its parts |
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Tim Kleinert
Joined: Mar 12, 2004
Posts: 1148
Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Audio files: 7
G2 patch files: 236
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:27 pm Post subject:
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Gee -this discussion has grown in my absence. Don't know if I'll manage to plug into everything said in the meantime.
But I do feel tempted to have a stab at those Cage quotes.
| skiptracer wrote: | "throws grenade"
Here are a few John Cage quotes:
"The first question I ask myself when something doesn't seem to be beautiful is why do I think it's not beautiful. And very shortly you discover that there is no reason." |
Oh well, then let's just go to an airport and sit right next to the jet engine of a Boeing747 (140dB). No reason, sure.
| Quote: | | "Which is more musical: a truck passing by a factory or a truck passing by a music school?" |
Just a pseudo Zen-koan-like clever-dick question which sounds meaningful while signifying nothing.
| Quote: | | "If you develop an ear for sounds that are musical it is like developing an ego. You begin to refuse sounds that are not musical and that way cut yourself off from a good deal of experience." |
Well then, please explain: How can you experience something without an ego?
No, sir. If Mr.Cage really understood the mystical teaching of Zen buddhism (which he repeatedly (ab)used as a basis for his position) he would have known that experience is the direct result of ego. No ego, no experience.
And it's the ego that wants experience in the first case. So if Cage argues that experience is desirable, he already takes the desiring ego-position he is trying to debunk. Ha ha.
I'm sorry, but Cage is a joke. I don't understand how anybody could ever take him seriously.
*Where's my atomic bunker?* |
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