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qfingers
Joined: Nov 16, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Tucson, AZ
G2 patch files: 2
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 Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:49 pm Post subject:
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| 3phase wrote: | | qfingers wrote: | The biggie is the Morphs because the NM1 morphs are more generic then the G2's when it comes to using after touch and stuff like that. The change to module models requires some effort as well.
q |
I just spend a day... thats nothing to the whole projekt...
I see that the control/morp assign question is a hard nut...
But its also something that can have its time because its usually something left to the personal user to assign the morhs... so personally as someone that likes to transfer own patches i would benefit from a complete translation..while most patches in the lib would do well without morph assigns...At least you would get an idea whats going on and just miss the variations. |
The modifications to the module converters is much easier then the Morphs. I wanted to complete the general convertion process so that all that needs to be done is to modify the module and parameter convertion tweaks. The tweaks can be done against 1 or 2 source code files. The knobs, midi ccs, and morphs require structural changes to the whole application and libraries. I want to make sure that is stable and no other major changes will be required. That's why it was a higher priority. When I implemented the knobs, I had to change every module converter class (about 150). I want to finish things like this so they don't have to be messed with.
I'll probably have most of this stuff done in a day or two.
| Quote: |
However.. i am still waiting for 1:1 comparisons and anylyses of conversions, that will bring up probably many details, because i think its better to do that when g2ools has reached a state where it is supposed to handle all conditions somehow... |
I still need a good Lfo Mst/Slv algorithm. Especially when dealing with Lfos rates that are multiples of the Masters rate. This is one item on the list I posted early that I forgot to include.
| Quote: | I tried yesterday to do some work on problems i had with manual conversions... But there are probably still some other missmatchings i havent thaugt about yet...
anybody has more ideas where NM1 to G2 incompatibilitys exsist that might be better investigated before the program gets to a detail question state? |
As I get them, I'll update the respective module converter. I'm sure there are many modules that could use this level of detail on each module. My guess most of the work will be spent on the Oscillators, Filters, and Lfos. Alot of modules have direct one-to-one convertions and require no special modifications.
I do sometimes feel I'm flying blind because I don't have an NM1. I have some gear to sell first. I'm really looking for a NM1 rack with expansion.
They come on ebay often enough. The hard part will be to find one with an expansion, or just the expasion board. It'll probably be a month or two before I can afford to buy one though.
q |
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3phase
Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1184
Location: Berlin
Audio files: 13
G2 patch files: 141
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| Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:04 pm Post subject:
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About the morphs that get applied to pitchmod and fma amount knobs there won´t be a 100% match anyway because there the tables cant be applied..it would be probably possible to reduce the morph ranges there automatical to get it at least closer.
When you look deeper into it you realize that NM1 and G2 are quite different animals somehow... at least in the details they are pretty uncompatible...
One thing i came along again in the tests... something i discovered before...
The same patch played simultaniosly on the G2 and the Nm1 results in a gourgeos big sound because of the slight timbral differences in booth machines..it gets really 3 dimensional...
I however rarely used that possebility because its way to much work to do any patch twice...
might be possible that because of g2ools i start to layout the basic patches or soundengines in the Nm1 again..do a g2ools conversion and do the refinement and controling on the G2 than..this way i safe lot of work when i want to have pairs of a sound that can be run on booth machines simultaniously..
Its possible that just because of this Nm1/G2 chorus trick g2ools becomes a creation tool for me rather than just only acces to the old lib...
So instead making my old NM1 that was rather kept to avoid conversions obsolete, g2ools can bring it back in the creation process again...
Since the G2 is there i havent done a single patch on the Nm1 again because it looked like a dead end road...
G2ools might help many NM1 users that refused to do the step towards a G2 at one point..
Patch with convidence on the Nm1 and go to the G2 without loosing your work...
I guess that Clavia lost many potential customers because that missing patch upgrade possebility g2ools is supposed to provide now..
A major step forward for the nord modular user base ! |
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3phase
Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1184
Location: Berlin
Audio files: 13
G2 patch files: 141
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| Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:12 pm Post subject:
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[quote="qfingers"] | Quote: | | The knobs, midi ccs, and morphs require structural changes to the whole application and libraries. I want to make sure that is stable and no other major changes will be required. |
Ok..I see.. anyway good to have morphs 
| Quote: | I still need a good Lfo Mst/Slv algorithm. Especially when dealing with Lfos rates that are multiples of the Masters rate. This is one item on the list I posted early that I forgot to include.
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You have probably overseen the solution i posted here earlier in the thread... it really works with the constant module and just having them in freerun..the only thing G2ools has to do is to set the pseudo slave lfos to the same initial frequencie..
So the outcome of a slave lfo connection can be patched easily in the G2..it just will need way more dsp than the master/slave tactics of the NM1..
when i find time later i do an example patch |
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qfingers
Joined: Nov 16, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Tucson, AZ
G2 patch files: 2
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| Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:18 pm Post subject:
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[quote="3phase"] | qfingers wrote: | | Quote: | | The knobs, midi ccs, and morphs require structural changes to the whole application and libraries. I want to make sure that is stable and no other major changes will be required. |
Ok..I see.. anyway good to have morphs
| Quote: | I still need a good Lfo Mst/Slv algorithm. Especially when dealing with Lfos rates that are multiples of the Masters rate. This is one item on the list I posted early that I forgot to include.
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You have probably overseen the solution i posted here earlier in the thread... it really works with the constant module and just having them in freerun..the only thing G2ools has to do is to set the pseudo slave lfos to the same initial frequencie..
So the outcome of a slave lfo connection can be patched easily in the G2..it just will need way more dsp than the master/slave tactics of the NM1..
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Basically, what the converter needs to do is set the slave Lfo frequency to the same as the master. This seems easy to do. Then add a constant module (Bipolar), and connect it's output to the Pitch input of the Lfo. Simple... I'll do just that.
| Quote: | | when i find time later i do an example patch |
That would be excellent!!
q |
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3phase
Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1184
Location: Berlin
Audio files: 13
G2 patch files: 141
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Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 4:47 pm Post subject:
Subject description: Slave Lfos |
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So a quick example patch... Its in fact a bit more complex when freq modulation is applied because that has to be aplied to all slave lfo´s than...
booth patches sound very similar...a bit more body on the NM1... there is still something regarding the mixer modules ..i wasnt able to translate volume settings of the lfo´s 1:1..
however this patch shows a complex thing in audiorate you can do with slave lfo´s..when such a thing gets translated correctly it should be fine for simpler tasks aswell
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SlaveLfo2.pch |
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SlaveLfo2.pch2 |
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qfingers
Joined: Nov 16, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Tucson, AZ
G2 patch files: 2
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modular
Joined: Jul 26, 2004
Posts: 185
Location: Rome, Italy
Audio files: 5
G2 patch files: 72
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| Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:40 am Post subject:
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| Quote: | Traceback (most recent call last):
File "/Applications/MacPython 2.4/g2ools-0.5/nm2g2.py", line 247, in -toplevel-
if sys.argv[0][0] == '-':
IndexError: list index out of range |
I'm still stuck with this,please 3phase could you tell me how you do relocated the g2tools folder in order to run succesfully?
also typing ./nm2g2.py nm1patch.pch does nothing
this is the last message out in terminal window (I have Mac OSX 10.4):
cd '/Applications/g2ools-0.6/' && '/usr/local/bin/pythonw' '/Applications/g2ools-0.6/nm2g2.py' && echo Exit status: $? && exit 1
Computer-di-Roberto-Rocchetti:~ bilbo$ cd '/Applications/g2ools-0.6/' && '/usr/local/bin/pythonw' '/Applications/g2ools-0.6/nm2g2.py' && echo Exit status: $? && exit 1
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "/Applications/g2ools-0.6/nm2g2.py", line 25, in <module>
from nord.g2.file import Pch2File
File "/Users/bilbo/Desktop/g2ools-0.6/nord/g2/file.py", line 24, in <module>
File "/Users/bilbo/Desktop/g2ools-0.6/nord/module.py", line 24, in <module>
File "/Applications/g2ools-0.6/nord/g2/modules.py", line 4015
^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax
I'm dumb in unix language so i need somebody explain me step by step
what i have to do to run g2tools with OSX in order to convert patches,
I'm also Python 2.5 right installed
Or,finally,somebody else could post the NM1->G2 patches oneself coverted here?
Thanks to everybody in advance and best happy NewYear! |
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3phase
Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1184
Location: Berlin
Audio files: 13
G2 patch files: 141
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| Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:44 am Post subject:
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i placed it just in the main directory...but i dont think this matters so much..
it started working after i used the phyton editor shell to change the first line in the programfile to the hyton adress you get when you tye the which phyton command... after that i was able to open the file with the phyton launcher and now i dont even need to change the adress anymore and just can doubleclickstart the program file...
On my phyton version it actually dont translates every patchname...no spaces allowed...
Actually i am not too unhappy that it somehow fixed itself after i treated it a bit... |
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Wout Blommers
Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4529
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 12
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| Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:10 am Post subject:
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| 3phase wrote: | | ... On my phyton version it actually dont translates every patchname...no spaces allowed... |
Some sequencers can't handle 'space' either, so that's the reason I changed most names in the archive... Almost all 27 000... 
Wout |
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cappy2112
Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 2471
Location: San Jose, California
Audio files: 2
G2 patch files: 1
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| Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:24 am Post subject:
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| 3phase wrote: |
On my phyton version it actually dont translates every patchname...no spaces allowed...
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Try running it again with quotes around the filename as in..
./nm2g2 "my Roland patch.pch"
Spaces in filenames are generally not a good idea. Use underscores instead. |
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qfingers
Joined: Nov 16, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Tucson, AZ
G2 patch files: 2
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| Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:36 pm Post subject:
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New version updates:
- Finish MIDI cc's ·
- Finally cut a py2exe version·
- Update OSC when using Saw waveform to add an level converter·
- Update PitchMod input based on 3phase's table to all PitchMod'd OSCs·
- Update PWMod based on 3phase's recommendations·
- Finish LFO Mst/Slv stuff·
- Update Overdrive to 3phase's model·
- Update SineBank to 3phase's model·
- Update FormantOsc to 3phase's model·
- Bug fixes.
I didn't do the morphs yet. I was busy with alot of the things. This is a major update, so upped the number to 0.10. The nm2g2.exe file should work under windows, I tested under XP and it seemed to work.
I think all the major stuff is done except for morphs. Morphs aren't that hard, I just got tired. I've put quite a few hours in getting this to it's current state. I need a break. I'll still be working on it but just not at the pace I was. Releases will be a little slower. I still want to create the project web site which I'll probably do in the coming weeks.
I hope you guys post converted patches that are cool. I want to hear them too.
Feel free to send me PM's or post on the forums for bug fixes. If it's critical enough, I'll try and pump out another release.
Enjoy,
q |
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qfingers
Joined: Nov 16, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Tucson, AZ
G2 patch files: 2
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| Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject:
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Sorry, I missed the ClkGen Mst mode. Plus I had a patch that had the Slv of a Osc tied to an Lfo Mst. I made the routine more generic in that it will make the connections and setup as much as it can. It's the best I can do.
q |
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3phase
Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1184
Location: Berlin
Audio files: 13
G2 patch files: 141
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| Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:09 pm Post subject:
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a complex piece of work..but sounds like thats time now to check some conversions and look for the little tweaks...
One thing thatr came me in mind was that there is a difference in the mixermodules..i ve to aprove that..but somehow i got a memory that the mixer modules in the Nm1 are not unity gain in the max setting...
i will have a look with the oscilloscope... |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 24163
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 280
G2 patch files: 320
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| Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:15 pm Post subject:
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| 3phase wrote: |
One thing thatr came me in mind was that there is a difference in the mixermodules..i ve to aprove that..but somehow i got a memory that the mixer modules in the Nm1 are not unity gain in the max setting...
i will have a look with the oscilloscope... |
Which reminds me on something Rob mentioned the other day.
There is a difference in characteristic for the exp mode. The exp and dB modes BTW are exactly the same except for the way the values are displayed. This difference in input characteristic holds for all type II input attenuators alike, that is for frequency modulation inputs of oscillators f.i.
The lucky thing is that all type II inputs attenuators are the same (and the type is documented mostly in the online help), the bad news is that it's not so easy to make tables for it.
To the best of my knowledge for both the NM Classic and the G2 both have unity gain for the max. setting of 127.
_________________
Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Afro88
Joined: Jun 20, 2004
Posts: 701
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Audio files: 12
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| Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:21 pm Post subject:
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Absolutely amazing work guys! 
If there was a way to interface this work with the open source nm1 editor project, we could have a sort of universal editor, where you can mix and match nm1 and g2 modules and the converter would take care of the rest. Interface the g2 usb stuff with it, and you could patch in realtime with a mixture of nm1 and g2 modules! Eg, patch in a sinebank, and the converter will put the appropriate modules into the g2 patch behind the scenes. |
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3phase
Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1184
Location: Berlin
Audio files: 13
G2 patch files: 141
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| Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:24 pm Post subject:
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i ve checked it...booth mixers are unity gain in the max setting...
the exponential curves are different and its indeed the same table as on the pitch mod input that aplies..
its just very questionable to have 6 2 mix modules on the G2 replacing a 3 input mixer on the Nm1...
i would say that this is regarding pitchmoduklation and fm sometimes required to get patches sound wright..regarding levels or filter control the rough equation is enough..
so levels on mixers cant be taken 1:1..it usually between 5 and 10 digits lower settings on the G2..as said tghe table for pitchmod input works even without the finetuning circuit well enough for most cases |
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3phase
Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1184
Location: Berlin
Audio files: 13
G2 patch files: 141
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| Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:32 am Post subject:
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2 bugs found... on oscillators with master slave connection modulation don't gets applied to the master oscillator...see attached patches..the source..the result on g2ools 0.11 and the corrected version...
I was wrong with the morphs..they are important for the conversion, because when not applied all related parameters are set to the minimal of the assigned morph range..not to the value saved with the patch..that actually is the product from morphrange and setting of the master morph knobs in the NM1 editor toolbar.
2nd bug... input of fx area gets set to +6 db even when not required..leading to unwanted distortions...
g2ools 0.11 started working pretty good... seems that sequenced patches get translated correctly now even when they are dense..
I however run into something that might be an unconvertible patch...
Master slave connections are used as modulation source for other proposes than pitch.... i will have a look if this can be replaced somehow...but it would be a rare case anyway...
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SineChimes.pch |
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sinechimes.pch2 |
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sinechimesC.pch2 |
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Last edited by 3phase on Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
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3phase
Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1184
Location: Berlin
Audio files: 13
G2 patch files: 141
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| Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:54 am Post subject:
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other bug
The buildingblock for keysplit gets assigned wrong by nm2g2...
The upper border value goes to lower border module and the other way around so that the module is not triggering at all because upper border is allways below the lower border than. |
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3phase
Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1184
Location: Berlin
Audio files: 13
G2 patch files: 141
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| Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:41 am Post subject:
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The PW mod is not working correctly..The limiter module fucks up the modulation... and is anway only working when the osc has 50% pw because otherwise it dont protects against the level drop on 0% pw...
it has to be after the shape knob..therfore the shape knob needs to be patches aswell.
I made a a new model for osc A and B of the NM1 that react on PW modulation correctly..sounds allmost the same as on the NM1 in all conditions...i suggest to change to this modules...
the note quantizer in the mod input of osc B defenetly matters on audiorate modulations. gives a rougher distorted more bodyfull sound.
regarding the inverted output..
In the end of the day it seems that all waveform outputs of the NM1 are inverted... Therefore it could cause bigger problems in the conversion if some oscilators get inverted while others not..
The question is if a model shall be exact... with all phase relations..
or just sound the same...
I suggest to leave inverted waveform outs out of the conversion for the moment..just with saw lfo´s´they are important...
i came along the problem within the attached patches...
They sound the same and behave the same on shape and mod amount settings.. 1:1...the limiter avoids that the sound drops on minimal PW...
just with the wright amount to get it sounding close to that fx on the NM1..
But..the oscilators are synced and supposed to cancel themself out when zero modulation is applied...
therefore the sync have to be done at the original oscilators output..or i would have to invert before the sync input again...
that situation generates a good argument to leave waveform invertion on oscs out of the game up to the moment that really creates problems in a patch..in the moment the inversions causes bigger trouble.
As it happens on the conversion try of this patch...
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3phase
Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1184
Location: Berlin
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blue hell
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Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 24163
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qfingers
Joined: Nov 16, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Tucson, AZ
G2 patch files: 2
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| Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:19 am Post subject:
Re: grey signal inputs... |
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| Blue Hell wrote: | | 3phase wrote: | | I dont know what the mathematics behind this grey signal inputs is..maybe somebody has some infos? |
The grey inputs are FM inputs with a different sensitivity.
So what should work ... is to take an OSC C set it to zero Hz and connect the grey signal to the FM input. Set the FM mode to Lin and open the mod knob fully. Then either apply an attenuation by a factor of two or a gain of a factor of two before the FM input - it is a factor of two, but I forgot in which direction and I can't patch on the NM Classic currently to test it.
For LFO's this solution is not possible as there is no FM input. However the LFO shape A module has a DIR input which gives linear frequency control but only up to the frequency the LFO is set to and not above that, so maybe just set the frequency very high ?
See attached patch, the left side is the grey audio illustration, the right side is some LFO grey signal ideas that probably wont be good enough.
Another idea for the LFO might be to build an LFO from scratch, but it would need a phase accumulator that works correctly for negative input signals. I couldn't come up quickly with a good idea for that, I'll give it a thought though. |
My question is when do I decide to apply this? I can check the inputs for signal connections. I can also check various values of parameters. What I cannot do is look for the Slv output of a Master thru various modules. If it's directly connected, it's possible. But if it's routed through various modules like amplifiers, shapers, etc, I cannot. Things like to Slv outputs into a mixer, then routed to a Mst input of a Osc or Lfo. That would be difficult if not impossible to program for. But I can cover alot of the possibilities.
Thanks for all your input. This program can only get better with your help. I don't have the equipment to compare against the original. The patches I have tested sound pretty good but may not even sound like the original. Let's keep going.
q |
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blue hell
Site Admin
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| Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:28 am Post subject:
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Damn it, I forgot to save the patch with the LFO part in, and it's not in the undo or redo anymore either as I tried some other ideas ... well the LFO wasn't good enough anyway 
Meanwhile I've got a phase accu that is bipolar, but it won't work very well with the shape LFO, it gives clicks due to phase jumps. It does work OK with the audio rate PM osc, but that will only give sine and tri output, and itis all soo expensive DSP wise ... the PM osc is cheaper though than the shape LFO.
Anyway, I'll attach it, maybe it will help others.
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grey_lfo.pch2 |
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_________________
Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
Last edited by blue hell on Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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blue hell
Site Admin
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Posts: 24163
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
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| Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:34 am Post subject:
Re: grey signal inputs... |
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| qfingers wrote: | | My question is when do I decide to apply this? |
Think the best way would be to always apply it and instead substitute the master OSC with a home grown lin to exp converter, i.e. the level scaler module set to a 6dB up-ramp. Some scaling is probably needed on that.
_________________
Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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qfingers
Joined: Nov 16, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Tucson, AZ
G2 patch files: 2
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| Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:45 am Post subject:
Re: grey signal inputs... |
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| Blue Hell wrote: | | qfingers wrote: | | My question is when do I decide to apply this? |
Think the best way would be to always apply it and instead substitute the master OSC with a home grown lin to exp converter, i.e. the level scaler module set to a 6dB up-ramp. Some scaling is probably needed on that. |
So I should remove the MasterOsc solution for everything? What about patches that already use the FmMod input? How do I set the frequency? Not all slave Osc use 0 Hz? How do I deal with the Coarse and Fine Frequency settings? Please post an example of both the NM1 patch and the resulting G2 patch so I can see exactly what you are describing.
q |
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