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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
Anyone willing to take a stab at this patch?
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Hyde



Joined: Jul 15, 2004
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 9:05 pm    Post subject: Anyone willing to take a stab at this patch? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i am trying to get this 'AnythingBox' patch to sound as good as it does on my Micro. the G2 patch is not quite right - its not as glitchy, low-fi, and raw like the Micro version. that is why i am hoping that the converter might build it differently (more accurately).

(for those who don't have a G1 i'm posting screens of the difference)

Micro Modular version:

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

G2X Engine version:

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.


g2oolsanythingbox.pch2
 Description:
g2ools version

Download
 Filename:  g2oolsanythingbox.pch2
 Filesize:  3.6 KB
 Downloaded:  1456 Time(s)


AnythingBox.pch
 Description:
original Micro version

Download
 Filename:  AnythingBox.pch
 Filesize:  2.35 KB
 Downloaded:  241 Time(s)

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Hyde



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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

50 views and not one person willing to chime in or assist? what happened to this forum? i've been gone awhile. apparently things have changed...

Sad
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I had a listen to the G2 version in the demo software. I have never owned a G1 so I couldn't comment on any differences.
I imagine it would be difficult to compare because of the random nature of the patch.

You would have to somehow remove all the random factors so you could compare A:B with exactly the same parameters. You might be able to get one set of random values to sound closer but this is no guarantee that the next set of random values will also sound "right".
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3phase



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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i dont understand the problem? the g2 dont sounds like a nm1.. the nm1 actually sounds better..the g2 can do more...

of cause you might try to tweek the result of the converter..it only cant give a close aproximation.. ther are critical modules like the nm1 distortion or delay that not realy can be patched satisfiyng in the nord.. the spectral osc and the formant osc are also rather difficult..

on the other side the converter is able to even convert some grey signal patches pretty well... not 100% but a good part of the keyrange..


my studo is in pieces wright now.. i will have a listen when the nm1 is online again
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Hyde



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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks 3phase. i have tried. i can't get it to sounds as glitchy and lo-fi. i always attributed it to the 16 bit Micro vs. the 24 bit Engine. well, that plus the fact that several modules are missing... if you can help that would be appreciated sir Smile
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Derek Cook



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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hyde wrote:
50 views and not one person willing to chime in or assist? what happened to this forum? i've been gone awhile. apparently things have changed...

Sad


I'm afraid I can't help as I don't have a NM1 and not a "deep" G2 expert.

Just as a general observation about the forum being quiet, it just seems a general sign of the times with all the forums that I am on. Is it because I love my current gear, have no plans to replace it, so am still hanging around places like this whilst the "instant gratification" crowd have moved on to the next instant fix? Smile

Whilst quiet, forums like this are still invaluable. Smile

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Antimon



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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The Nord forums have definitely quieted down over the years. Stuff is happening elsewhere, plus since Clavia has discontinued the Modular line new users don't prop up like they used to.

Regardless, I think that complicated patches posted with the comment "what's wrong here" have always been met with mostly silence. There's nothing wrong with posting, it's just that the NM was constructed for happy patching rather than easy reading. I just see a tangled mess of wires and boxes. dunno

Maybe you can isolate some stuff that's nagging you into smaller patches of 4-5 modules? Then we could discuss what's happening in each of these?

/Stefan

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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've never worked with the NM (G1). But skimming over the patch, I see alot of audiorate modulations. In my experience, the harder you drive oscillators and filter algorithms based on different code with audiorate stuff, nonlinearities etc., the bigger the sonic differences will be between them. Thus, simply approximating the patch structure as good as possible will most probably not give you a similar result. This is just from my experience creating the same patches on different VA platforms.

Re: the silent Nord forums: Well, I'm still at it. Smile Working on a polyphonic MIDI looper with 60 seconds looping time.
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Roland Kuit



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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

removed my former text, i was a bit grumpy.
Last edited by Roland Kuit on Sun May 16, 2010 2:58 pm; edited 2 times in total
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dasz



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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i'm still on here, but not too often. I rely or rather depend on my g2's to run my entire show (including external devices such as xoxbox, blofeld, ableton live, and an electroharmonix looper).

tim wrote:
the silent Nord forums: Well, I'm still at it. Smile Working on a polyphonic MIDI looper with 60 seconds looping time.


tim, that sounds intriguing. do tell. i've built midi loopers with note sequencers, but i recon yours might use delays.
/Dasz

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Roland Kuit



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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

me too im more in G2 now with muse and ableton, i dont patch so often my nms, but more adjustments. tim, this sounds exiting.
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davep



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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tim wrote:
I've never worked with the NM (G1). But skimming over the patch, I see alot of audiorate modulations.


A-HA! I think you may have something there ....

Something to keep in mind is that the blue modulation inputs on the various NM1 modules are ALWAYS clocked at a lower resolution than the red modulation inputs (I think it's 24kHz? Not sure, but it's somewhere in the manual), which can result in grungy aliasing distortion when you connect an audio-rate signal to a blue mod input. But on the G2, when you connect a red audio-rate output signal to a mod input, the mod input CHANGES from the blue lo-res to a red hi-res format.

So in your NM1 patch, I notice that you are sending an audio rate signal from one fo the oscs to the blue pitch mod input of the LFO. This particular type of patch connection may give very different results on the NM1 and G2.

You can 'force' a G2's mod input to behave as if it is staying at lo res like the NM1 by sending the audio-rate input signal through a digitizer module to reduce the resolution before sending it to the mod input..

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qfingers



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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

davep wrote:
tim wrote:
I've never worked with the NM (G1). But skimming over the patch, I see alot of audiorate modulations.


A-HA! I think you may have something there ....

Something to keep in mind is that the blue modulation inputs on the various NM1 modules are ALWAYS clocked at a lower resolution than the red modulation inputs (I think it's 24kHz? Not sure, but it's somewhere in the manual), which can result in grungy aliasing distortion when you connect an audio-rate signal to a blue mod input. But on the G2, when you connect a red audio-rate output signal to a mod input, the mod input CHANGES from the blue lo-res to a red hi-res format.

So in your NM1 patch, I notice that you are sending an audio rate signal from one fo the oscs to the blue pitch mod input of the LFO. This particular type of patch connection may give very different results on the NM1 and G2.

You can 'force' a G2's mod input to behave as if it is staying at lo res like the NM1 by sending the audio-rate input signal through a digitizer module to reduce the resolution before sending it to the mod input..


I'd agree except for the fact that the LFO pitch input remains blue. Even though you are sending audio rate, the mod input only processes at control rate. nm2g2 does it's best to make sure the input gets processed at the proper rate. 3phase and I tested this in numerous patches. It's actually more configurable then the editor will allow which is suprising. The g2 will handle allow mixed rate inputs to be processed at either control rate or audio rate. As long as you don't try and save the patch within the editor, it will work. Once the patch is saved, it will revert to the rate of the output. If a new editor is ever created, it could theoretically allow input connections to be handled in either rate. It's a feature that could be exploited. If you use the g2ools library, it will allow the rate of the input to be modified.

I'm not sure this helps, but I don't think it's the problem. I could be wrong.

q
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

My point was more that, in my experience, different oscillator algorithms, although virtually (pardon the pun) identical when producing unmodulated standard waveforms, can exhibit big differences in sound and behavior when audio-rate modulations are applied. This can have many possible reasons. It can simply be due to the FM mod input attenuator being scaled differently. The algorithm oversampling ratio is also critical with FM. AFAIK, the G2 oscillator algorithms have double oversampling ratio compared to the G1, making them less prone to aliasing. This however will also affect their performance when applying audio-rate modulation, as they will produce more accurate results.
And since the complaint was that the patch doesn't sound as glitchy/raw/lo-fi on the G2 compared to the G1, that was my first thought.
So, what I would do is first to check if the FM mod attenuators on the G1 and G2 oscillator modules are scaled identically, or to tweak the input levels until they match. (This can be done by applying a constant module to the inputs and tune by ear.) What I would try next is to downsample the signals going into the FM inputs to 48kHz (to compensate for the higher internal oversampling).

No guarantee, it's just what I would try.

cheers,
t
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dasz wrote:

tim wrote:
the silent Nord forums: Well, I'm still at it. Smile Working on a polyphonic MIDI looper with 60 seconds looping time.


tim, that sounds intriguing. do tell. i've built midi loopers with note sequencers, but i recon yours might use delays.
/Dasz

Just for the record: I built the looper just now and it doesn't work due to another delay bug I wasn't aware of. Too bad. Otherwise the concept performs flawlessly. Would have been nice... Oh well.
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dasz



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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tim,

that's too bad. can you post what you have created so far? and the concept? I'm curious. I really dislike how the delay lines disintegrate the signal when unless you use the internal fb. sigh, kind of limiting.

a long time ago, when changes could have happened, I requested the ability to set the sampling rate in the delays, but alas it did not happen. sigh - again.

you know, with inspiration from roland kuit's efforts, I think there would be a lot of value to have "tim's advanced modular toolkit" tutorial. [edit - perhaps we could call it "Tim's swiss army knife tricks for G2 modular" Wink ]

/Dasz

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Last edited by dasz on Mon May 31, 2010 8:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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alcofribas



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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Will you soon tell us more about that new bug Tim?

Delays once again... not Clavia's greatest claim to fame.
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Folks... after klutzing around endlessly, hunting down the problem and making long-term tests to calibrate a ridiculoulsy small gain compensation in the feedback loop, I got the bastard to work after all.

Régardez:
http://electro-music.com/forum/post-297381.html

(Sorry for hijacking the thread. I'm out of here now.)
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3phase



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sorry-.. no time to reinstall my nm1 yet.. its sity allready in position..but i am out of midi cables..again... the decimate more than any others :-/


however.. examining the screenshots i would say that the random modules might be a source here for the sound derivation.. maybe try to reduce the probabilty parameter a bit...
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Roland Kuit



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

this is very difficult, nm and g2 sounding different. first i got rid of the rnd pitch modulations. then reset the parameters as in the original pch. the nm is sound directer with more dirt. i first added digitizer modules before the fm routings, no luck. i tried feedbacking stuff, no luck. so i ended up with only 1 digitizer at the end. it is not the same, but maybe second best.
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Hyde



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks roland for your effort!

it is similar but very dry. alot of the fading glitchy delays are gone. it's so weird that there is so much difference between the two units. maybe i could randomize the genes of the patch or something...
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3phase



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

you really make me curious now..just from the look i would think this one would be done by the converter pretty good..because non of the critical modukles is involved.. have to find some free mdi kables to get the editor hooked up to my nm1...
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