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Regebro
Joined: Sep 12, 2004 Posts: 61
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Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:37 am Post subject:
Let's talk mixer EQ - specifically improving the EQ in mine |
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I want some ideas and inputs on what makes a good EQ, because I don't know. It is just the frequencies and Q that does it? How does a good EQ look, really? Are there any EQ circuits out there that are Real Good but doesn't use tubes or millions of parts?
Explanation:
I have a Tascam M-2524, and the M-2500 series EQ usually gets comments from "It has an EQ" to "It zuuuuuuckkkz", and since I have very little experience with mixers that has more than "bass" and "treble", I didn't have much opinion of my own on the topic.
However, I do feel that it's not super-useful, and when seeing videos of real classic high end classic vintage mega EQs, I kinda get it. It seems that with something like a Pultec, it doesn't matter what you do, it just magically sounds better.
So I mentioned to a friend that I might sell the Tascam and get something else, I don't like mixing in the computer, and he just "You can find somebody that can mod the mixer and make it better!" and that's an intriguing idea. Can I?
If all that's needed to make it better is changing the frequencies or Q values, then heck yeah, I just need to find an example of a good three-band EQ and mod the tascam to have similar values. But if I need to replace the whole EQ circuitry, then obviously, that's not doable.
Opinions, insights and information, please! |
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airlock
Joined: Apr 06, 2007 Posts: 299 Location: Calabash, NC USA
Audio files: 53
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Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:05 pm Post subject:
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OPINION: Not worth the trouble or expense. |
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Regebro
Joined: Sep 12, 2004 Posts: 61
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airlock
Joined: Apr 06, 2007 Posts: 299 Location: Calabash, NC USA
Audio files: 53
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Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 3:04 pm Post subject:
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I guess it all comes down to application: do you really need a 24 channel mixer w/EQ? The 8 busses is nice in post, but unless you are tracking a live band most people don't need that many channels. That's was a nice mixer in '90s, if it all still works I'd leave it alone and use a plug-in EQ in the DAW. |
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Regebro
Joined: Sep 12, 2004 Posts: 61
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Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:26 am Post subject:
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Airlock wrote: | I guess it all comes down to application: do you really need a 24 channel mixer w/EQ? The 8 busses is nice in post, but unless you are tracking a live band most people don't need that many channels. That's was a nice mixer in '90s, if it all still works I'd leave it alone and use a plug-in EQ in the DAW. |
I don't like mixing in the DAW one little bit. So yeah, a 24 channel mixer with a nice EQ is going to be great. I just ordered a a Cymatic 24 in/out interface to go with it. |
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dk
Joined: Feb 12, 2019 Posts: 115 Location: Europe
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Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:18 am Post subject:
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Another opinion: not worth the expense.
For the $300 you paid to buy it + $150 you'll spend on mods, you could probably already buy something better. Toss in the amount of time you spend working on it instead of making music (if that matters), you can definitely find something better. Even with the mod you'll end up with something that's at best mediocre, as even a newer Mackie, Behringer... pretty much anything newer will match or outpace it. And we won't even get into the magical "N" word (Neve) that you keep mentioning on Gearslutz, which is desirable pretty much only for tracking and for the sounds of its amplifiers and inductors, not it's EQ curves (which is a bit too limited for mixing).
Of course, if you're going for it just for fun, knock yourself out _________________ Horrors Of Dial-Up! on Facebook
Horrors Of Dial-Up! on Instagram |
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Regebro
Joined: Sep 12, 2004 Posts: 61
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Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:31 pm Post subject:
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dk wrote: | Another opinion: not worth the expense.
For the $300 you paid to buy it + $150 you'll spend on mods, you could probably already buy something better. |
Well, certainly I don't suggest people buy a Tascam M-2524 in order to mod them.
And the expense for me still is $150. Sure, if I bought something else I could sell the Tascam, but just packing it for shipping would be similar amount of work to modding it.
But to be honest, I doubt I could get anything much better in any case, I took a look at eBay now, and only thing I found that would be better was an Allen & Heath ZED 428 for £700. For $450, at least in Europe, the best you can find are what looks like heavily toured Mackie SR24's... |
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L´Andratté
Joined: Sep 23, 2012 Posts: 151 Location: Hamburg, Germany
Audio files: 5
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dk
Joined: Feb 12, 2019 Posts: 115 Location: Europe
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Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:39 am Post subject:
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Quote: | But to be honest, I doubt I could get anything much better in any case, I took a look at eBay now, and only thing I found that would be better was an Allen & Heath ZED 428 for £700. |
Sure, but then you'd have your conversion as well. I'm guessing the Tascam + the convertors you just ordered will end up costing roughly the same?
Mackie VLZ1604's go for about $300 used in Europe, and pretty much anything in the VLZ series will compare very favorably to the Tascam, both in sound and in maintenance. Again, if you're after the fun in modding it, enjoy, but sonically it's not even going to beat out newer 'budget' desks unless you completely rip out the insides and put something else in there. _________________ Horrors Of Dial-Up! on Facebook
Horrors Of Dial-Up! on Instagram |
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Regebro
Joined: Sep 12, 2004 Posts: 61
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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:55 am Post subject:
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dk wrote: | Quote: | But to be honest, I doubt I could get anything much better in any case, I took a look at eBay now, and only thing I found that would be better was an Allen & Heath ZED 428 for £700. |
Sure, but then you'd have your conversion as well. I'm guessing the Tascam + the convertors you just ordered will end up costing roughly the same? |
No. I already own the Tascam, and as mentioned, the parts for the conversion is about $150. And I bought extra fancy "audiophile" capacitors, and change everything in the signal path, which I'm not sure makes a difference, I haven't checked yet (I will), and if you don't do that the components will probably just be $50 or so.
Now, I ended up actually making circuit boards for it, which cost me another $40. But it's still cheaper. The cost is definitely not the issue here, this solution WILL get me the most bang for the money, if I don't include the work.
Quote: | Mackie VLZ1604's go for about $300 used in Europe, and pretty much anything in the VLZ series will compare very favorably to the Tascam, both in sound and in maintenance. |
?!? Maintenance on this thing is zero. I fixed some broken pots that broke in transport, and I cleaned the contacts with contact cleaner. Other than that I've had it for 15 years+ with absolutely no issues. It's built like a tank.
A VLZ1604 has only 16 channels. The EQ can also only sweep the mids, which might still make them better than the default EQ on the M2500, but certainly not better than my improved ones.
Quote: | Again, if you're after the fun in modding it, enjoy |
It is fun, which is why I'm not counting the work.
Quote: | but sonically it's not even going to beat out newer 'budget' desks unless you completely rip out the insides and put something else in there. |
Sorry, but you are wrong. There's nothing in this desk that destroys the sound, which you seem to think. The preamps are lovely and it has a lot of features.
Seriously, the only drawback with it is that the EQ isn't that great. Otherwise it's a really good desk.
Now I don't need the 8 busses. And the tape inputs only save me one patch bay, so no big deal. I don't think I ever used all four sends, only three. But a Mackie 1604 doesn't even remotely cut it. Last edited by Regebro on Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Regebro
Joined: Sep 12, 2004 Posts: 61
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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:05 am Post subject:
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L´Andratté wrote: | I would prefer older Soundcraft over Tascam anyday, always liked EQ--- |
Yeah, I believe you there. But that was completely out of my budget when I bought the Tascam.
Quote: | Do you need mic pres? |
Well, not 24 of them. That is a bit overkill.
Quote: | Do you need 24 channels? |
Yes. 20 might do.
Quote: | Another option- the Tascam has inserts? So instead of modding you could build a box of a couple of cool outboard EQs |
That's an interesting idea. It would be very awkward to work with, having the EQ somewhere which isn't the mixer, but yeah, it would work.
Cute! |
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Ricko
Joined: Dec 25, 2007 Posts: 251 Location: Sydney, Australia
Audio files: 27
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Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:26 pm Post subject:
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I read there are three relative weak spots for thst TASCAM mixer.
1. EQs are too sharp
2. Crosstalk
3. Noise
The first may be improved by different resistors. If you gave the skills, look at the schematic, figure out what kind of EQ cuicuit it is, find an online calculator fir that circuit, then substitute resistors for less resonance.
The second is not easy to say.
The third, I would replace all the NJR4565 dual opamps with (sockets and) less noisy chips. Start in the ouput stage. It seems a 5332 would substitute OK. Thus would also change distortion and clarity.
Regarding re-capping, It is a good thing to do. But it wont give much effect while these middling op-amps are in use.
For cost, it is vital to shop around: you may find thst, say, buying 30 or 50 chips in bulk can be much cheaper than buying 10 from the wrong place. |
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Regebro
Joined: Sep 12, 2004 Posts: 61
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Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 3:24 am Post subject:
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Ricko wrote: | I read there are three relative weak spots for thst TASCAM mixer.
1. EQs are too sharp
2. Crosstalk
3. Noise
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I haven't had a problem with crosstalk, but then again, I don't have a completely different song playing in some channels, so I don't know how that would ever get to be a problem, to be honest.
I don't find it noisy either, but one thing that should be noticed is that it basically operates with 25dB of headroom. I'm not sure why, maybe that's so that you can max out the EQ boost of both the high bass and the low mids at the same time without clipping or something? But the EQ goes to +15dB, and the nominal input is -10dB, but the headroom is +15dB!
I didn't realize this myself until I read the manual after realizing that the audio interface I bought has a nominal max output of +20dB and I was grasping for solutions to interface with my -10dB mixer. So, turns out it's actually +15dB, giving your 25dB less noise if you know that, and start actually trusting the OL indicators (and your ears).
But yes, I did not like the EQ's, hence this thread.
Quote: | The first may be improved by different resistors. If you gave the skills, look at the schematic, figure out what kind of EQ cuicuit it is, find an online calculator fir that circuit, then substitute resistors for less resonance. |
Yes, Cabirio on gearspace helped me with this, and I actually spent this winter implementing it, while also reorganizing the whole "studio".
Quote: | The third, I would replace all the NJR4565 dual opamps with (sockets and) less noisy chips. Start in the ouput stage. It seems a 5332 would substitute OK. Thus would also change distortion and clarity. |
I think it's maybe possible to lower the noise that way, but again, all the noticeable noise always come from other equipment, not the mixer, so... I believe the somewhat mellow sound is due to the input stage, and I actually like it. I think the preamps sound great, warm but still bright. Maybe the THD could be improved, but I doubt it, these opamps are pretty linear. And when they clip it's immediately obvious, the clipping is super-hard, almost digital in nature.
Quote: | Regarding re-capping, It is a good thing to do. But it wont give much effect while these middling op-amps are in use. |
It didn't, and it likely won't even with other opamps. The THD actually lowered, but I tested plenty of different combination of caps, and there was no difference between the combinations. The difference happened with the new EQ implementation, even with old caps. It seems it just has lower THD for some reason I don't understand. |
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Regebro
Joined: Sep 12, 2004 Posts: 61
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Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 3:44 am Post subject:
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So, final update and conclusion.
Was it worth it? For me, yes. For others? No. Because for me the cost was just a bunch of new caps, resistors, and a few small circuit boards I made. And most of the caps you can skip, the recapping made no difference.
Was it worth all the WORK though? From a commercial perspective, absolutely not, this probably took at least a 100 hours of work. But I enjoyed it, and I learned a lot.
Was the end result better? Oh heck yeah. I find the new EQ (designed by Cabirio on gearspace to have curves a more like a Neve) a lot more musical and easy to use.
I took a song I struggled to mix for days 7 years ago, and remixed it. I got to a place where I felt I wouldn't be able to improve it after a few hours.
See what you think.
* Old mix: https://soundcloud.com/regebro/a-northern-shore-desert
* New mix: https://soundcloud.com/regebro/desert-lullaby-2021
The only difference in gear here is that I have an old budget reverb a dbx 290, that I actually really love on acoustic guitar. The new mix is a complete remix from scratch without caring about the old one at all, so differences is not just EQ, but it just felt better, and I think it sounds better too.
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Check out those green and red caps. |
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I made a plaque so nobody thinks it's a standard M2524 if I die. :-) |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24163 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 280
G2 patch files: 320
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Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 5:31 am Post subject:
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Regebro wrote: | [...]it just felt better, and I think it sounds better too. |
I agree, can hear details better .. on the original one the voice being in one ear almost was a bit odd to me .. it being more centered and with a nice reverb sounds better .. it removes some character from the voice as well though, not sure if that is good or bad ..
It is a nice song! _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Regebro
Joined: Sep 12, 2004 Posts: 61
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Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 6:51 am Post subject:
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Thanks! |
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Ricko
Joined: Dec 25, 2007 Posts: 251 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 10:18 pm Post subject:
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Yes, much clearer?
Do you have a schematic or url for the eq boards? |
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Regebro
Joined: Sep 12, 2004 Posts: 61
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