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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
how make? send program up/down from buttons on G2
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astaplatz



Joined: Apr 01, 2005
Posts: 6
Location: amsterdam, the netherlands

PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 5:10 am    Post subject: how make? send program up/down from buttons on G2 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hello!

i'm stuck! can you help?

I want to make two buttons on the G2.

Button 1 decreases a counter and sends a program change via MIDI.
Button 2 increases the same counter and sends a program change via MIDI.
Obviously I want to cap the counter at zero and at some upper number like 128.

...

How can I do this? I'm having trouble getting my brain to wrap around the way logic and counters work on the G2. I'm quite good in Max-msp... but its quite a different way of thinking on the G2...
Sad

thanks!!!

seb.

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Probably this wont teach you too much, but it seems to do the trick ...

The blue modules are are the controls, the yellow stuff is the rest of the trick and the green modules are just for monitoring what happens (and that will now only work with the patch loaded into slot A)


ud_pc.pch2
 Description:
Patch change with up/down control

Download
 Filename:  ud_pc.pch2
 Filesize:  1.38 KB
 Downloaded:  1928 Time(s)


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Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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monobass



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That would be a good entry in the building block section.
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astaplatz



Joined: Apr 01, 2005
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Location: amsterdam, the netherlands

PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

excellent, thanks!!! i'm v ery greatful!!! very speedy reply!!!
it works, but erm... its confusing! doh, i need more brain cells...
Sad

would it be too much to ask to have the steps that are caired out explained?

might help me to eventualy make my own logic based patches...

and yes, this array of modules merged into one unit seems like a missing essential module for any avid user of the G2 as a remote control tool for 3rd party [software] synths...

wk,

seb.

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

astaplatz wrote:
it works, but erm... its confusing!


Yes it is ... actually the circuit I presented is an example of bad design, and I don't fully understand it myself either. I'll try to explain what I do understand about it. I really should be ashamed of myself though Embarassed

The central idea is the S&H and the mixer below it. This really is an analog memory cell. When a signal of +1 is put on one of the mixer's inputs the output will go up 1 unit as well. when then the S&H is then clocked and the input value is removed the new value will be remembered. This is a very useful circuit to make counter circuits on the Nord Modulars, and you'll see it in more patches.

The clock pulse for the S&H is derived from the +1 and -1 units, the latter using an inversion first. This is the mixer labeled "or" and the `module labeled "invert".

Then comes the tricky part ... and I must confess that I didn't really design that ... it makes the up-going edge needed for the sample and hold at the right time, and this occurs by accident really ...

To do it the proper way I would have had to make the circuit clocked, but I didn't like the idea of needing the extra modules for that. Either that or I would have had to make an analysis of the circuit incorporating the time the signals need to travel through the circuit, and I was too lazy for that. So I tried intuition instead, which is why this is the tricky part, I was lucky to get away with it. Bad design.

The basic idea was that the NOR gate would pass on (and invert) the pulse from the module labeled "or" only when the output of the "hi limit" module is low, and otherwise the NOR output would be low. See : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_NOR

However from the lights on the modules you can see that this is not what is happening. The reason for this is that the input for the "hi limit" module is not taken from the output but from the mixer that feeds the sample and hold. At the moment you press the up button the output of the "hi limit" module will go high and a lucky race condition in the circuit aborts the output from the NOR just in time to not cause the pulse to be seen as valid. But OTOH I sort of needed behaviour like this because when the pulse would not be passed on when the high limit was reached it would not be possible to make it go down anymore.

The part around the XNOR circuit is equally messy. The idea here was that an XNOR gate can be considered to be a conditional invertor. When one of it\s inputs is high it will invert the other input. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xnor So the XNOR can be considered to be an invertor when the output signal is above (or equal to) the low limit. The idea here being that the circuit would stop working when the output signal would go below the low limit. But again, here is a race condition because the input of the "low lim" module is not taken from the S&H output but from the mixer. And again the race makes it work. I would have expected an XOR to be needed, but due to timing again it needed an extra inversion.

And this is where my understanding stops. It's a mess really Very Happy

I think this circuit has a flaw BTW, when for whatever reason the output value goes out of range it might not be always possible to get it in range otherwise than reloading the patch ...

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Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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BobTheDog



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Jan,

Aren't race conditions a little dangerous, is it possible that a new firmware might stop this working?

Cheers

Andy
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes they are, even when no new firmware comes rearranging the modules might stop it from working. Maybe one day when it gets cooler I'll make a proper one Very Happy
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Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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astaplatz



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

lol

i dont know whats more confusing! the patch or the explanation!!!
Very HappyVery HappyVery HappyVery Happy

oh humble me thanks thee for taking the time to decifer it, i'll print your text out and go over it with a cup of coffee to try and figure it out at some point soonish.

what really surprises me, is that such a simple mathematical operation needs to be so coomplicated? i dont know if you are familiar with max-msp [its a visual-object based language] but making a counter that increases/decreases value is just a question of slapping on one "module" [its called an "accumulator"].

a lot of my ideas for [nord] patches involve working with sums, adding and reducing values based on knobs or other internal processes... so the lack of direct math driven operations feels to me like I'm having to learn how to speak chinese to get my modular to articulate... and many of my patch ideas are thus far unexpressed because of this/my mental-approach-barrier...
Razz

Anyways, enough rambling, the nord is of course a beautiful environment - I'm probably just too fixed in my way of thinking.
Wink

thanks again!!!!!! i shall do my best to learn the way of the red one!

wk,

seb.

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ian-s



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Probably lots of ways of doing the same thing and this one may not be any easier to understand.
The S&H accumulator works as Jan described.
The bounds checking is done by a pair of window switches that simply cut off the signed pulses outside an overlapping range.
Changing the Ctrl Send to CC70 allows you to step through variations but preferably, in a different slot.


uPDn.pch2
 Description:
up down with bounds

Download
 Filename:  uPDn.pch2
 Filesize:  1.28 KB
 Downloaded:  1371 Time(s)

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thank you Ian for allowing me to go on being lazy Very Happy

This is a better candidate for a building block.

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

astaplatz wrote:
what really surprises me, is that such a simple mathematical operation needs to be so coomplicated?


The Nord Modulars are the natural evolution of analog modular synthesizers. The original beasts weren't intended to do math or logic functions. That the NMs allow some of this is a nice thing, but it is not the object of the instrument. Many people use G2 and MAX/MSP. They are good for different things.

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BobTheDog



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

astaplatz wrote:
what really surprises me, is that such a simple mathematical operation needs to be so coomplicated? i dont know if you are familiar with max-msp [its a visual-object based language] but making a counter that increases/decreases value is just a question of slapping on one "module" [its called an "accumulator"]


Hi,

Actually its not actually that simple a mathematical operation, it is being made easy for you in max-msp as someone else has actually done the work.

If you have a look at http://www.ece.ucsb.edu/Faculty/Parhami/text_comp_arit.htm you will see that what we see as simple arithmetic is actually quite complicated when you try to get a machine to do it.

I must admit I find most things I look at very complicated Smile

Cheers

Andy
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