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3phase
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Axiom
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 Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:21 am Post subject:
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what a coincidence  I'm working both on a 303 emulation and trying to figure out how to do DIY envelopes for another patch (I need a 16 stage env). Creating envelopes seems to be harder then other kind of circuits. The behaviour you've described above catched my interest.. I will try to figure out a solution.
Cheers,
Luca
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dasz
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:22 am Post subject:
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I can't try this since my nords are put away as is my soundcard. But have you considered using sequencers to simulate the various shapes of the envelope stages? You could use a glide (or other smoothing methods) between the sequencer values to reduce the aliasing (the control sequencer has this kind of thing built in)
I once talked to someone who did an emulator of a synth, what he did was use lookup tables (aka sequencers in the nord), and altered them until he got the idiosyncracies right. Some of this was used on envelope shapes, some of it was used on the filter characteristic. He never showed me the source code, so he could have been making this up.
But I recon there are 2 ways of doing it - get the curve formulas right, or cheat (use lookup tables to simulate curves).
I'm just saying this may be something to try. It may or may get you there. [ edit -- took out comment from game industry ]
/Dasz
Last edited by dasz on Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tim Kleinert
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:51 am Post subject:
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| dasz wrote: | | But I recon there are 2 ways of doing it - get the equations right, or cheat (use lookup tables). |
How do I calculate the right lookup table without the right equation? 
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dasz
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:56 pm Post subject:
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I should have rephrased that, but I'm thinking emulating certain curves with the sequencers vs generating those curve formulas. The Nord is not like Reaktor or Max/Msp, it can be tricky to do some basic things.
And I would use multiple sequencers with different curves and then xfade between them based on some parameter (like accent strength, etc).
Let me know if that is more clear.
/Dasz |
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Axiom
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:13 pm Post subject:
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Yes, i've tried using control sequencer to simulate those curves but, for my purposes, isn't the right solution. I have to find another way to achive a single stage. There are some common feature needed for every stage, beside signal in/out:
- gate in
- gate out
- start level
- end level
- direction
- curve
- time
Most of them are very basic blocks to do, but "time" one is the core and harder one. I have to study also 3phase solution.. is very interesting and I find it useful.
Luca
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dasz
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:29 pm Post subject:
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so seq's are not the way to go. good to know.
/Dasz |
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Axiom
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:26 am Post subject:
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Using control sequncers can do the trick.. one of the downsides is when you use a clock divider to set the stage time. You get a short gap (silence) when the signal passes from a stage to another. i've tried to combine a clock div with a glide module to reduce that gap but it stills and wouldn't be fluid like a standard envelope.
The other downsides are dsp consumption, too much (imho) for a single patch but can be managed if you do a performance, and the curve design. If you plan to do a standard ADSR, or some sort, the curve design can be nice and not too much time wasting... but how when you plan to build a 16 stage envelope? Imho, it can work but isn't the fastest and elegant way to achive that...
Cheers,
Luca
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3phase
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:35 am Post subject:
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i am just about to give it another go...
the curve wasnt so much the problem..at least not yet...
i am still way before thinking about matching the characteristics to the original...
its more a problem of structuring the things wright...
there are voltages inside the 303 doing the thing and it must be somehow possible to get this patched... what i learned sofar is that when you have the structure wright the clone will behave like the original and its especially the dynamic behaviour of the 303 i am after...
i had another try with the normal envelopes where i had a compare module and sample and hold giving me the possibility to stop the envelope at any point i want...that actually sounded pretty 303ish...only problem i had...
the main part of the modulation was happening within 3 digits of the envelope ...resulting in something that acted rather like a env amnt switch with 4 positions than the smooth working env amnt knob we know from the 303.
The experiment however showed that its important that while the modulation goes deeper it has to travel longer within the audioable range of the filter...
maybe some kind of dynamik env scaling...?
probably the mod envelopes are the easiest way to get it done..
i ve to try that aswell..it would be cheaper...but not really patching what is going on ...the decay time of the 303 is not changing ..it just sounds like that because the negativ offset voltage that is applied thru the envamnt knob. when you turn the envamnt knob clockwise on a sustained note the filter frequencie gets down...while the max point of the filter modulation will be the same on the next trigger...
time of the envelope stays the same but it appears to sound longer decaying...
what does that tell? a lin slope?...starting at Vx and going down to whatever negativ offset is used? its a petty that i just had the devilfish for a few hours...maybe i need to listen thru the test recordings i did and cut out some significant loops...
I told the clavia people last year that i would try to do a real 303 emulation for the g2 lib. many people asked for that...just like the new roland gear has a good 303 emu on board...
But..
with the nord...
a 303 emu that really behaves like the original would be just a performant building block that allows to get far bejond the 303 soundwise..
theoretical...
I had 2 gigs with a real 303 nad my g2 emulations in parallel...
what shall i say....
its hard to beat the real thing... the g2 was more the accompanie tiny acid line while the 303 went from wallshaking to screaming..actually leaving the audience screaming... The extrem dynamic range of the 303 makes it worth to emulate it...more than any other synth...many people claim the 303 filter to be cheap..that is bullshit..its a discrete build ladder filter...
the devilfish has audio ins and a booster to overdrive the filter...
it dont sounds cheap...maybe the 303 oscilator is cheap..its filter and the tricky env modulation is gorgeous...
After the mod the next big problem...the bloody filter...
I wouldnd mind to cooperat e on this projekt...just to big...
the filter needs to be DIY...with very good feedback capacitys...
and....
very good distortion capacity !!!
this is a fucking difficult task..the env shit is easy against that...
4 poles...1 pole one octave up... probably no matched transistors and therefore all poles slightly out of tune?
this is all i know about the 303 filter yet...
i check the DIY forum here...maybe some of the real tronic guys have more ideas what is actually going on in a 303 filter. |
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8BitVertigo
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3phase
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:59 am Post subject:
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hi,
i had many tries...but i dont know if i am miles ahead...its such a complex item that i am just trying from ground zero again...
I once had pretty good results with the sequencer and the accent/accent sweep circuit.
this is somehow burried in the 303 patches i posted here allready...
Sofar i had 2 trys on the NM 1 and its the 3rd run on the G2 
seems like a fix idea for me by now...
results from the experiments showed me that its possible to get this much closer than its done sofar... i was just to lazy to give it another try..and now i ve not much time ...however i ve a gig in 4 weeks and like the idea to get to a situation where on the smaller venue one week after the 303 can stay at home... its quite a thing to have the extremely portable 303, the synchronizer , the 2 powersupplys...the sync cable with a switch, the midicable to the midi interface ...and extra power sockets with you....just to fire one 303 line or 2 during the entire gig ...
I think the G2 can do the job...but it will be an expensiv patch.
I ve an extra drummachine now...i can afford the luxury...
It was interesting to use the emulations and the real thing together on stage...
I realized that its essential that patternchanges and seq transpose are happening quantized to the bar...its big part of the 303 performance that you actually have time before the transpose happens to do something with the knobs...it really makes a difference...its part of the performant package...5 knobs, seq transpose, 32 combinable 1 bar presets.
free measure design..like 7/8.
Pattern transpose and change quantized to the one...
this together with an expressiv filter envelope and a screaming resonance...
Thats the 303..
Its difficult to perform that on the G2 in its actual version...
its essential that on patternchange the knobs keep theire value.
You have to invest in 2 slots...
My concept is to have soundengine and remote seq control in one slot..and the sequencer in another...needing all 4 interslot busses for fast timing.
I just stuck with the bloddy envelope thingy ..maybe i should layout the seq structure first...its done in pieces allready... The quirky sequencer was a hard nut...
maybe i layout that today..just a bit more env testing..
the manual actually states what my listening test showed...
http://machines.hyperreal.org/manufacturers/Roland/TB-303/schematics/roland.TB-303.schem-8.gif |
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3phase
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:25 am Post subject:
Re: TB303 emulation |
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| 8BitVertigo wrote: |
Spent most of my time just figuring out the slide / accent model and hadn't spent much time on the Osc/Filter modeling.
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your soundengine sounds cool...
i will make the layout of the sequencer frame now...
even when it costs an extra slot its also a good development enviroment for the soundengine...
you get 4 signals arrving at the soundengine that has its own slot as poly area...
gate
pitch w slide
acc
x free x
only 3 interslot busses ..its 4 channels when you want to do it with midi...
for development its easier when the slide time stays in the seq area...
You can applie any sound engine than with out bothereing with a trigered glide module. |
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3phase
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3phase
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:05 pm Post subject:
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i ve selected statements that give insight in the work principles of the 303 circuit...
But this is far from a complete explanation and even more away from a propper translation into NM modules... however some interesting points.
If somebody found additional ones maybe add them in the thread.
Just as found in the net... various sources mostly AH:
The 303 filter is a diode-ladder filter (only that it uses transistors that
are
connected to act as diodes). So it is more similar to the EMS AKS or
Minisonic design than to the Moog in some way. It is a 4-pole filter; but
due to the pole location, which is quite different from Moog- or
CEM-filters,
it has more of a 18dB/Oct than the 24db/Oct slope in the interesting
range. (Of course, in the infinity, every 4-pole low pass is 24dB).
It is a 4-pole filter, with 3 poles the same and the 4th pole about 2.5
times higher in
frequency than the others. So, it will more resemble a 18dB/oct response.
With the 303 however the first cap has a value half that of the others.
So the first pole is a octave higher.
Because we have a LOW pass filter here this first pole does not contribute
to the filter function.
Not sure how the first pole contributes to the resonance point, with some
other filters the resonant frequency is determent by the last pole only.
However I duno how this is with the moog ladder.
sounds ok, the transisters are wired different and the moog has a resister in each pole. I think diode ladders just distort more. The 1st pole shift gives the slope a 'knee' so 18dB for first octave, 24dB after. I suspect they wanted a brighter tone without reduced resonance.
And a statement from an emulation that offers a non 303 18db filter :
"... there is an additional 18dB filter (called Pure18dB). This filter has additional brightness at low cutoff and can be selected.."
The difference between the 303 ladder and the Moog ladder is how the
resonance feedback is applied. On the 303 the feedback is applied to the
transistor that drives the current through the ladder, which gives extra AM
modulation in the filter, causing that typical 303 filter distortion sound.
On the Moog ladder the resonance feedback is applied to one of the two
inputs of the ladder itself, hence the 'clean' resonance sound.
not according to the schematic
The TB-303's filter has nothing to do with the CV which controls the
oscillator. It is controlled by:
1 - The Cutoff pot.
2 - The Env-Mod from what I call the main envelope generator (not
the volume EG).
3 - On accented notes only, via a lag circuit which depends on the
position of the Resonance pot, the main EG's envelope (which on
the TB-303 is fixed to a short time on accented notes - the
"Decay" pot only affects it on non-accented notes) goes through
this lag circuit and makes the filter go "Wow" - if the resonance
pot is to the right. If the pot is to the left, there is more of
a direct pulse of higher frequency to the filter, without the rise
which gives the distinctive "Wow" sound.
This is how the TB-303 works. On accented notes, the main EG (which
sweeps the filter) is switched to a fixed short time, rather than the
variable time of the "Decay" knob. Also, on an accented note, the
output of this EG goes via the Accent pot and the resonance pot lag
circuit to add to the filter frequency.
Note that the cutoff is lowered at the end of decay - this is due to the
infamous "Gimmick" circuit, 3 transistors which pull this little trick.
WHY, I don't know. Needless to say, it's a pretty feature that you'll have
trouble duplicating w/o a modular. On a typical AR envelope circuit,
you'll want to add a -5VDC offset to the normal 0-10V output.
An Attack/Release Envelope which is bipolar (or some sort of level
shifter to make a unipolar envelope bi.
The second part of the resonance pot is for what I
call the Accent Sweep Lag circuit. It gives an abrupt pulse of voltage
to the filter with the pot is anti-clockwise and a smoother pulse (a
"wow" curvaceous rise and fall) when it is clockwise.
Larger accent equates to larger gain in the low frequencies, which creates a stronger attack at the beginning of each note
Are the 2SK30 FETs that important to the TB303(0) sound?
Yes. The one in the VCO affects the mark-space ratio of the square wave
output. This is why some clones don't sound like the
little silver box.
The saw wave is affected too - the 2SK30 FET source follower buffer
introduces a positive offset at its output that causes the top of the saw
wave to be clipped.
This affects both the saw and square waves.
The offset is dependent on the characteristics of the FET, which is why a
selected FET must be used to ensure the right degree of clipping.
> and the square wave has some slew.
Yes, this is the wacky one. Difficult to emulate exactly without the
right circuit. But I reckon you should be able to do it with a normal VCO
output and a little conversion circuit that uses the TB303's FET follower
and squarewave shaper. Almost feel a module coming on... but I must
control myself
> waveforms distort over frequency range...
This is true of the squarewave. Less so the sawtooth, although the fixed
rise time of the saw does play a more important part as the frequency
rises.
> constant time glide...
Nothing special here as far as I can work out. Standard RC time constant
stuff. Any ordinary portamento circuit will do it. These are often called
'expo' type circuits since their response is unlinear. The MOTM VC-lag
may not get this exactly right since it will operate in a linear fashion
over large swings of input CV. However, you should be able to get very
close when the shape pot is set to EXP.
But don't forget you have two envelope generators feeding the filter's
cut-off point. The main one controlled by the decay pot and the one
coupled to the accent circuity. The accent's one has an attack slew
setting that is dependant on the resonance setting. Also, the main EG
reduces to a short decay when accent is implemented.
And don't forget the assymetrical distortion in the TB303's output
circuitry. This is very important... and it changes with output loading
too.
Regarding the Slide Circuit ( by Robin Whittle):
Lets say you have 16 1/16 th notes programmed. Each note occupies
six clock pulses - lets call them pulses 0 to 5.
The gate goes high at the start of clock pulse 0 - the positive edge.
The gate goes low half-way through clock pulse 3 - on its negative
edge.
That is for a normal, 1/16 note. So there are 3.5 clock pulses on
and 2.5 off.
If there is a slide programmed on that note, then the slide circuit
is actually activated on the *next* note. The slide starts at
the start of clock-pulse 0 and ends at the end of clock-pulse 5.
The other function of slide is that the note it is programmed on does
not turn off, but the gate stays high and runs into the next.
So the CV seen by the VCO - which is the output of the slide circuit -
is sliding from pitch B towards pitch C, during note C. We don't
hear the last part of this - since the gate is off the volume drops
to nothing very quickly - unless it is an accented note, in which
case the Main EG drives the VCA as well. In this case, in the TB-303
the Main EG has a fixed short time. In the Devil Fish, this time is
variable and can be quite long.
Devilfish only:
Filter FM uses the ouput of the VCA, AC coupled (ie. via a
capacitor), into the filter frequency.
There are subtleties of some aspects of the
Devil Fish, particularly Filter FM, where the output of the filter goes
through the VCA, and back (via the Filter FM pot and a capacitor) into
the filter...
Last edited by 3phase on Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:42 pm; edited 10 times in total |
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8BitVertigo
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Unfed
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:42 am Post subject:
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haven't had a chance to check out the examples, but just wanted to say you guys are excellent for doing this.
i remember finding an excellent (to me at least) 303 patch buried in a patch or performance that was either factory or downloaded from here. couldn't find it last time i looked, i'll post it if i can find it again. seemed almost dead-on at some points to me, i easily dialed in plenty of sounds reminiscent of 'Sheet One' or 'Musik' era Hawtin. the overdrive on it was gorgeous. seemed better to me than alot of the specific 303-type patches i've seen. of course i had no idea of the exact details of the sequencer that you've discovered.
any idea if the MC-202's sequencer works in exactly the same way? i know it's a bit similar in the way you program accent and slide, but i don't know if it has the quirks of the 303.
also, any thoughts on the good amount of hardware 303 clones out there? what do you think about the sound (or possible sequencers) on them, and how do you think the G2 can stand up to them on all counts (once you guys get this all sorted)? do the others take all this detail into account when designing their clone (i'm guessing they mostly concentrate on the filter)?
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3phase
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:24 am Post subject:
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here is the source of the info about the 303 sequencer
http://www.firstpr.com.au/rwi/dfish/303-slide.html
as you will realize its a very own thing that is different to the 202 or any other normal analog sequencer.
The G2 has the natural problem of the low digital resolution...especially a devilfish 303 with its high resonant peaks is not really possible to be simulated ( the peaks go well above 50khz, 96 samplerate is too low to do that as clean and precise ).
Its however possible to get quite a bit in that direction. Because of the detailed soundshaping possibilitys of the g2 it probably can give a better clone than some hardware devices.
I heard about a device called transistor bass 3 that has the filter and envelope done pretty accurat...this together with the propper sequencing tactics should sound close aswell...
most hard and software clones ignore too many details of the 303 soundgeneration to even sound close to the original. |
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8BitVertigo
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:14 am Post subject:
Accent Sweep circuit |
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3 phase.
Any ideas how to build the accent sweep circuit - looking at the Devil-fish web-site it involves some kind of leakage circuit - I think if we can crack this bit, the filter / slide / accent circuit will be mostly there, I think you already have the Osc model figured out in one of your older G203 versions. Will have another go tonight.
8bit... |
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3phase
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3phase
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:36 am Post subject:
Re: Accent Sweep circuit |
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| 8BitVertigo wrote: | 3 phase.
Any ideas how to build the accent sweep circuit - looking at the Devil-fish web-site it involves some kind of leakage circuit - I think if we can crack this bit, the filter / slide / accent circuit will be mostly there, I think you already have the Osc model figured out in one of your older G203 versions. Will have another go tonight.
8bit... |
i cracked the accent sweep circuit allready... look in the patches completed drums section ...there is a 303 patch that isnt an propper clone but has the accent sweep as layout...multiple accents rise the filter...
its just a question how to callibrate it...i ve made some interesting recordings with the devilfish with accent sweep on and off that might help to adjust it...but... i am fucvking up a job wright now...
have to hurry... |
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8BitVertigo
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3phase
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:46 pm Post subject:
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a few aproaches on the accent swwep circuit in various versions.
The modules to use are the glide module and the envelope follower..
a combination of booth seemed to work best...but i wasnt thru with that...
the circuits are allready prooved to be usefull for other stuff aswell.
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303 Base 0.3.pch2 |
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3phase
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:54 pm Post subject:
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A few sound examples from a devilfish.
first (here last)on that shows fx of the accent without resonance...
a 16th a 8th and a 4th note... env mod max (extended range on devilfish)
filter full up, no resonance, accent and normal decay same setting around middle. ( devilfish has independent filter env times for acc and norm notes)
note that the accent still adds to the filter freqencie even when by the settings the sounds should be almost the same...this is maybe because of the accent sweep circuit that adds to the envelope amount.
second test... 3 samples
no accent , same setting as above... from no to mid resonance.
-max resonance
-boosted resonance...a setting only exsistent on the defilfish
comes in next posting
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Last edited by 3phase on Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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3phase
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selvmarcus
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Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:57 pm Post subject:
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8bit:
your latest mod feels very sexy to me!
sounds much closer IMO,
especially with the more closed filter sounds.
think i have to install rebirth (it´s free now)
for a comparison (as soon i get the cd-burner working).
and bring my teebee (clone) here some time soon, too.
regarding the patch...
may be some additional analog "instabilities" in the osc
could be useful?
i read somewhere it is not really well-tempered in the higher
note range, too... may be not so important to emulate, though.
selvmarcus
(germany)
(about to play didgeridoo through g2-engine, live) |
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303 cloning, Envelope challenge, DIY envelopes+Filters
New 303 model