moog modular vcf?

numbertalk · Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:54 am Post subject: moog modular vcf?

I was looking at JH's site and reading about his Moog-style modular system. The VCF he built is based on the Moog modular VCF and he describes how this this has a different sound than the Minimoog VCF. I've noticed a good number of DIY Minimoog VCF projects out there but couldn't find any DIY projects/PCBs for a Moog modular VCF. Does anyone know of any out there? How different does this filter sound from the Minimoog VCF?

Peake · Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject:

WHAT!!? Do people want to join "The Church of Moog"? Laughing

Don't you know that it uses mylar caps in the core and as such, DRIFTS? A LOT? And that the passband reduces in volume in proportion to any increase in resonance? And that it has inaccurate frequency response in the bass region? And that the Q is non-linear across the response range? And you have to switch between three frequency ranges?

Wouldn't everyone rather have a nice, accurate, constant-Q, distorting Curtis filter IC? Wink

prophei · Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:35 pm Post subject:

hahahaha

THE HORROR Shocked

Peake · Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:44 pm Post subject:

Anyhoo, the Moog oscillators are a large part of why the filter is often credited as the heart of the system, of the Moog Sound. Put dead oscillators through it and poof- you lose the majority of what makes the Moog sound like it does.

This is not mind control. Think about it.

mono-poly · Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:55 am Post subject:

Yeah with some 901's succes guaranteed.

numbertalk · Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:50 am Post subject:

Good to know. Any DIY oscillator projects based on the 901s?

Peake · Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:40 am Post subject:

frijitz · Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:48 am Post subject:

Peake · Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:57 am Post subject:

mosc · Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject:

I have a 1972 Moog Modular - bought it new. It's a special instrument, but I don't see anything special about the sound. It does have a characteristic sound, but it's too noisy for me to use much.

I use almost exclusively a Nord Modular G2, but I'm moving towards developing my own VST synths.

If anyone is in my area, give me a PM I'll be happy to let you try the Moog.

numbertalk · Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:29 pm Post subject:

Part of what even made me curious about building any modules based on Moog modules is getting the type of sound in this sample - the 4 line repeated pattern. As I understand it is something you could really only get with a Moog? Maybe would be possible with Minimoog modules as well.

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Peake · Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject:

mono-poly · Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:17 am Post subject:

Mosc you probbaly needto recap it to get rid off the noise.

But if you want those crazy Rubycon sequences you really want a 901 vco bank with the 904a and 902 and 911 modules Smile

mosc · Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:23 am Post subject:

I wouldn't want to recap my Moog, then it wouldn't sound like a Moog. That noise was there from the very first day.

synthetic · Joined: Jun 02, 2007 Posts: 76 Location: Glendale, CA

OP, Jurgen licensed his design to Synthtech to make the MOTM 490 filter. You can purchase the board and some parts from the Synthtech site, as well as MOTM-format panel, pots and knobs. Or you can just use the board as the basis for your own DIY project.

I have one and I love it. It kills my Moog Voyager filter.

http://www.synthtech.com/motm490.html

Peake · Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:07 pm Post subject:

"Based upon" is good enough for most people. Go for it (I'm looking into original parts, layout, power, etc., for as close to The Real Thing as is possible). Did Jurgen used mylar caps in the core? I've heard modified Moog oscillators with modern power supplies etc., and when you begin tightening things up, something important goes away. Something -interesting-. Perhaps you don't want something as drifty as the original 904a, but I'll certainly say that you definitely don't want something unmoving. Not interesting. Rock and roll is not about rigidity.

Then again, people never want the "real thing"- they want some idealized, sanitized expectation. That supermodel in the magazine has been airbrushed, friend. Real women have zits and body odor. Well, knowing this doesn't limit the sale of supermodel-related items. Shrug. Shop as usual; avoid panic buying...

Mosc, unless you're patching a 904b -after- the last filter in any chain, excepting a minute amount of hiss evident in the 902 when doing really dark bass sounds, there isn't any reason for you to experience truly objectionable hiss in a Moog system. Placing the 904b prior to the a solves that problem in many types of patches, so long as the LPF is kept moderately low. Not the most pleasant work-around, but I've owned -several- Moogs Modulars, of various sizes (went through lots and lots of synths of every type back when individual SEMs were $125.00 and you couldn't get rid of a Minimoog) and behold, no objectionable hiss. I owned one system for many years and same thing. It samples beautifully; used it on some sessions for one of the big 3 keyboard manufacturers. Even limiting it by 10dB or so did not result in objectionable noise. A solution which does not bother me, is to replace the 902 with something truly quiet plus incredible dynamic range, like the Selector VCA (I don't know if any other modern VCA matches this one, except likely the Wiard).

What are the conditions under which you are experiencing something truly objectionable? Or are you just rattling my chain? Wink

Peake · Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:02 am Post subject:

mosc · Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:17 am Post subject:

Peake · Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:43 am Post subject:

Again, hiss and noise are not part of any "normal" "Minimoog" style patch. I know that you know this.

I love all of the tangents and contradictions in this thread! Lets me know that people are uncomfortable, and looking for a way to be comfortable.

widdly · Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject:

blah blah blah....anyway..

What are the differences sound wise and electrically between the minimoog filter and the moog modular filter? Anything of significance? Anything worth pursuing?

Peake · Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:48 pm Post subject:

widdly · Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:49 pm Post subject:

Peake · Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject:

Suggesting that a link to a non-DIY, commercial product does not solve the problem? I agree, especially if it does not utilize mylar caps in the core. Drift is an audible characteristic of the 904a. Lose the drift, and it won't sound the same. I suggest that any DIY project relating to the 904a utilize the same choices as made by Bob Moog, using what Frijitz in his DoubleDeka thread called his excellent ears. Or it won't sound the same.

synthetic · Joined: Jun 02, 2007 Posts: 76 Location: Glendale, CA

Yeah, I liked to JH's actual design that you can buy. Peake thinks it needs more drift and stuff, shocker. Wink

Oh, and I keep the Voyager as it's an instrument I can play, as opposed to the modular which is best for spacey stuff. I may exchange it for a vintage Mini one day.

Peake · Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:58 am Post subject:

Perhaps you missed my reply to your inappropriately non-DIY, commercial solution in a DIY thread in response to a DIY question:

"'Based upon' is good enough for most people. Go for it.."

???

Then you insult the professional perceptions of someone who has been working full-time in synthesis and sound for far longer than you? I love the internet. Please don't feel bad if I cannot get anything at all out of your posts; they do not include useful or contextually appropriate information.

I've used digital synths since they arrived, and yes, I am quick to enjoy the beauty of anything not so locked into the "infinitely unchanging". Characteristics of life: Movement, unpredictability. Characteristics of death: Utter lack of movement, rigidity, utter predictability. (Edit: For God's sake, that's a description, not a threat. Get a life. Or lively modules.) Odd how the latter also describes Republicanism. Then again, nearly half of the voters in the States chose Bush, twice. How unusual is it that I am constantly up against such resistance? Not unusual. At least in digital synths, there are free modulation sources, of a sufficient quantity to subtly vary time, frequency, and amplitude...you don't have to waste modules and have total recall. Digital synths have evolved, but modular has de-volved. Bizarre.

Also odd how humor is usually movement in an unexpected direction. Constructive humor brings joy. Musically moving musical compents do as well. At minimum, the all-essential Interest.

BTW, I'm told by Yusson in another forum that either COTK or MOS-LABs use the THAT arrays to avoid hand-matching all of those transistors (many matched pairs required in The Filter). Moog DIY'ers might wish to follow that path, unless matching trannies isn't too unfriendly a process to them or spending that much on the arrays offends (in relation to hand-matching).