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 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » Nord Lead and Nord Wave synths
About Midi and Layers (special to the Rack)
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:55 pm    Post subject: About Midi and Layers (special to the Rack)
Subject description: A total mess? No!
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[mod]I unabled the sticky of this thread, due this text will be included to an overall review about the NordLead2/[mod]

This is Version 1.1 of this text.
All comments are welcome!

Wout

Clavia introduced the Nord in two models: NordLead and NordRack. The later just being a NordLead without the Keyboard, Wheel and PitchStick. It's obvious how the NordLead has to be played: playing the Keyboard controller. To use the rack version the same way a Midi Keyboard has to be attached. Such a controller uses one particular Midi channel, mostly number 1, although other channels can be used to.

Keeping this basic set up in mind, it's good to realize the NordLead and NordRack are basically four separated synthesizers, named A, B, C and D, mostly called Slot A, Slot B, etc. Each Slot can be loaded with a complete Program, which is the setting of all the parameters and buttons (switches/directions) of the synth, stored in the internal memory.
After booting up the synthesizer, just Slot A will be active, which shows itself as LED A is on. There is a Program available in this Slot, the one which was used when shuting down the synth earlier. This Program can be played: on the NordLead by using the synths Keyboard, on the NordRack by using the external controller. Slot A will be set by default to Midi channel 1, where Slot B will react to Midi channel 2, Slot C to 3 and Slot D to 4. These can be changed: press [SlotButton] > [Shift+MidiChannel] scroll using the arrows beside the LCD screen and [Shift] again.

When pushing two or more Slot buttons, more LEDs will be lit and more Slots will sound. Such a setting is called a Layer. Now the player wants to hear both sounds. There is no problem using the NordLead, because the Keyboard will control all active Slots. The Rack, however, will only sound Slot A and not any other Slot, because the controller only sends Midi using channel 1. Quickly perform probably three times press [SlotButton] > [Shift+MidiChannel] scroll using the arrows beside the LCD screen and [Shift] again. to set the other Slots to Midi channel 1. Because a Layer is the first step to create a Performance, this is a rather creativity depressing situation. The NordLead developers choose to make all Slots in a Layer, when active, react to the Midi of the left most active Slot, which is most of the time Slot A and, as said before, probably the channel which is used by the extern controller. Just beware, only the active Slots (lit LED) will react to the controller Midi channel.

All four Slots always react to their own Midi channel (the one it is set to). When you don't want a Slot to react to in coming Midi, just don't send any Midi on the particular channel, e.g. by muting the channel in the sequencer.
At the other hand when reacting to the feft most Slot it isn't the configuration desired, just deactivate all Slots besides one, mostly Slot A.
When using a Performance, which Midi configuration is mostly set 'all Slots to the same channel', there's no trouble at all, because the left most and the own channel is the same.

Last edited by Wout Blommers on Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:38 am; edited 18 times in total
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:57 pm    Post subject: Midi and the Nord
Subject description: From Layer to Performance
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The Layer can be saved by pressing [Store] > [Perf.mode], scroll using the arrows to a location in the Performance memory > [Store]. It's wise to change the Midi to the same Midi channel, which has to control the Performance from the sequencer or Midi controller. The other Midi channels wouldn't interfere. Mostly this means the used Slots will be set to channel 1.
Last edited by Wout Blommers on Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:16 am; edited 3 times in total
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:02 pm    Post subject: Midi and the Nord
Subject description: Focus and tweaking the parameters
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In a Layer one of the LEDs is blinking, which means the Program in that particular Slot is in focus, so it will react to any tweaking of the knobs. The other three Slots won't react. The trouble is when performing this tweaking on stage, turning a knob will result in a terrible jump in the sound, because the physical position of the knob isn't the same as the parameter in the Program. The parameter will respond in the immediate style when moving a knob. There is sadly no 'hook' knob function.

This is really nasty using the Gain and Filter knobs. The best would be a knob in the 'zero' position, so the value can be slowly fade in. In such situations I save the Performance with all the later 'fading in' sounds with an Amp Attack at 127 (= full open = a long time), which gives me some time to turn down the Gain or Filter to 0, setting the Attack to an use able value and slowly open up the Gain. This procedure I use fading in and out different Arpeggiator patterns using four Slots. (More then four Patterns can be used in a song, only four at the same time and believe me, that's enough Smile)

Last edited by Wout Blommers on Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:23 am; edited 4 times in total
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:06 pm    Post subject: Midi and the Nord
Subject description: Global Midi and SysEx
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Leaves uploading Programs from the computer, Global Midi channel and Program Change...

First uploading SysEx files from the computer or sequencer to the Nord. These messages are send on the Global Midi channel 1 to 16. Most Programs in the Archives are Global Midi 16 by default.
SysEx File wrote:
F0 33 0F 04 00 00 0C 03 03 04 09 03 0D 03 00 00 0A 03 08 00 00 00 0C 00 0E 04 02 01 00 07 02 01 00 01 0E 07 08 00 00 00 05 06 01 01 08 04 03 04 08 01 00 00 0F 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 01 00 00 00 01 00 01 00 00 00 02 00 02 00 02 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 02 00 04 00 F7
If there is another value instead of 0F use the particular Global Midi: 00=ch1, 01=ch2, 02=ch3, 03=ch4, 04=ch5, 05=ch6, 06=ch7, 07=ch8, 08=ch9, 09=ch10, 0A=ch11, 0B=ch12, 0C=ch13, 0D=ch14, 0E=ch15 and 0F=ch16, which is already known Smile
SysEx File wrote:
F0 33 0F 04 00 00 .. ..
indicates the Slot in which it has to be loaded, 00=A, 01=B, 02=C and 03=D. Most SysEx files use '00', so setting the synth to Slot A will work. Note the file is uploaded in the 'Buffer'. To save it in the synth use [Store].

My advise is to use always Global Midi channel 16. This can be changed if needed by [Shift+(2x)MidiCh] and scrolling the arrows > [Shift] again. The synth uses only one Global Midi channel, so changing it changes all the Slot Global Midi settings.

When ProgramChange has to be performed using the internal memory of the Nord, just use the arrows as usual scrolling to another Program when recording. Normally this works... Watch out for MidiFilters and other options, like MidiThrough settings in your sequencer... In this situation it’s very handy to dump all the needed Programs as a bulk into the synth, best in line of use in the ‘song’.

When ProgramChange has to be performed using a complete SysEx File imported in the sequencer, just beware of the Global Midi settings mentioned above.
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Another word about Performance.
Mostly Performance is referred to as being set up of more then one Program, which is indeed mostly the case, BUT it really refers to a situation in which you need to change something quick, which means: being on stage! So in Performance mode global parameters like Output mode and Unison Detune are saved and can be different in each Performance...

Clavia NordLead2X Manual, page 36 wrote:
WHAT EVERY PERFORMANCE CONTAINS

The following is a list of what a Performance contains, that is, what you actually save and recall when you
work with Performances:

FOR EVERY PROGRAM
• The selected Program complete with parameter settings or a reference to a Percussion Kit.
• The MIDI Channel setting
The ‘Special’ settings (Like LFO sync)
• Expression pedal assignment
• Aftertouch assignment

FOR EVERY PERFORMANCE
• The Layer configuration
• The Keyboard Split settings
Which Program is active for editing (= blinking LED) (Which means when only one active the other four can be used to make a quick manual Program Change)
The Pitch Bend Range setting
The Out Mode setting
The Unison Detune setting


What is puzzling me is "Why can't this not be saved without the use of a PCMCIA card on the NordLead and NordLead2?"

Wout
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msy2



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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 10:59 am    Post subject: Re: About Midi and Layers (special to the Rack)
Subject description: A total mess? No!
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Wout Blommers wrote:
Because a Layer is the first step to create a Performance, this is a rather creativity depressing situation. The NordLead developers choose to make all Slots in a Layer, when active, react to the Midi of the left most active Slot


I cannot get this to work.

My setup:

nord lead 2 rack

slot a = midi channel 1
slot a = midi channel 2
slot a = midi channel 3
slot a = midi channel 4

midi controller set to channel 1

My understanding:

If I select slot one and two both should play on midi channel 1 (the leftmost)
even if slot two is assigned to midi channel two.

I cannot make this work.

slot two only responses when i set it to midi channel one.

What have I misunderstood?
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msy2



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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

To follow up on my own message, despite what is wrote above the rack does not pay any attention to the left-most slot when layering. Bottom line you must set each slot to the same midi channel.

Selecting multiple slots on the rack has no purpose at all from what I can tell. So disappointing.
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, I tried this out on two machines...

My NordLead2, OS Version 1.06 acts the same as you describe: no Midi reaction to the leftmost Midi channel.

My NordRack, OS Version 2.3 behaves like the Manual describes: reacts to the leftmost Midi...

I'll try some more instruments in the near future. Is there anybody who can check out the NordLead2X, special the Rack?

I'm glad I opened this thread using the statement it's only the first version of the text Smile I think Clavia at one time changed the Midi implementation, but still copy/pasted the information into the following editions of the Manual, even the NordLead2X. It probably will turn out a deadline thingy...

At the other hand there were users completely lost when Slots which were set to the right Midi channel still reacted to other Midi channels, so all is rather confused.

I also will ask Clavia to shine some light on this and afterwards change the text into V 1.2

Thanks for checking this out and I hope the problem didn't gave you a headache...
Anyway, what do you prefer in the synth: leftmost reaction or not and why...?
I can imagine the leftmost reaction is annoying, even when it provides an easy way to create Performances (which can only be saved after changing the Program/Performance selection which means saved single Programs has to be transported by hand into the Performance anyway...)

Wout

Last edited by Wout Blommers on Mon May 25, 2009 6:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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msy2



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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I will check the versions of my rack 2 and rack 2x.

It will be very good if the left-most "trick" works. This seems to be the most logical way for it to work.

If you are sequencing and want the rack to work in a multi-timbral manner, just don't select more than one slot.

If you are designing sounds, always start with slot one and build the layers from there.

Seems very logical and really the only reason to allow more than one slot to be selected at a time on the rack.

I'll update after checking all my OS versions.

Thanks.
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phiol



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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey msy2

I'm not sure I understant what the problem is. I,d like to check on my rack 2x while I still have it.

what do you mean by:
Quote:
no Midi reaction to the leftmost Midi channel.

you mean slot A right.

These are the result out of trying w. a midi controller keyboard and no P(0-9) sounds:

I might be getting it wrong but I tried on the rack 2 and everything seems to work except that I,m listen trough the headphones output. And I don get slot C and D. Also, When all 4 slots are on channel one, I only get the left hear out of Slot C?

Now when using multi slots w. MaxMSP and in the P(0-9) I get no problems w. layers at all. OF The answer is simply that I am using multiple Channels.
Slot a b c d = Ch 1 2 3 4.

Please tell me if I'm way off track.
Because w. the following statement.
Quote:
Selecting multiple slots on the rack has no purpose at all from what I can tell. So disappointing.


There seems to be something I don't get.

phil
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msy2



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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

On the Nord Lead keyboard, if you activate more than one slot (A, B, C, D) all selected slots will play when you play the keyboard. It does not matter what midi channel they are set to, they play.

On the rack, there is confusion. The manual appears to say two different things.

On my racks, 2 and 2x, you can select multiple slots - hold down more than one slot at a time - but they will not all sound unless they are on the same midi channel.

The manual seems to indicate that there is a special feature where by if you hold down multiple slots they will all respond to the leftmost midi channel.

An example setup:

slot a - midi channel 1
slot b - midi channel 2
slot c - midi channel 3
slot d - midi channel 4

Your controller keyboard is set to channel 1

When you play a note, only slot a sounds because it is the only slot set to channel 1.

The manual seems to say that if you hold down multiple slots at the same time the rack will respond to the midi channel of the leftmost slot.

So, as an example, you hold down slots A, B and C

Slots B and C should now respond to both there assigned channels (slot b on channel 2 and slot c on channcel 3) AND also respond to channel 1 (the channel of the leftmost slot in the layer).

It would be very nice if this worked because you can very quickly build layers but just holding down multiple slots (this is how it works on the keyboard version).
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msy2



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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What I meant by:

"Selecting multiple slots on the rack has no purpose at all from what I can tell. So disappointing."

is that unless layers responding to the leftmost midi channel works, there is no reason that the rack should allow you to select multiple channels. Or none that I can think of.

What I mean is, on the rack, you can hold down slot A and then also press slot B

or hold down A and press C or A and then B + D

basically any combination.

On the keyboard this would cause all layers to respond regardless of their assigned midi channel.

It seems that on the rack they left this feature in (multiple selection of slots) but left out the implementation.

Can anyone think of any operation on the rack that requires you to select multiple channels at once?
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phiol



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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Whoa just a min here.

I thought I had understood in the 1st answer you gave me but not in the 2nd.

this is what I get:
NL keyboard = any ch value /any slot combo = response from implemented keyboard.

NR = Since midi controller keyboards send on ch 1 / AND/ since Slot A has priority over other slots, then as long as Slot A is on ch 1 all other slot combo should be possible. BUt if slot A is on any other ch then there will not be any other Slot working.

Or Another way would be, The left most Slot activated (regardless) should be ch 1 for the ones on it's right to work. but this is not what is happening. Is this right ??

Now if this is it, <- One should have a controller that can send messages on either any other midi ch or or even better on ch 1 2 3 4 simultaneously. <- this is ridiculously easy to do in MaxMSP but what if one doesn't want to use a computer.

Maybe this type thing (midi controller as multi ch sender) is easy to do w. a hardware seq<-which I know nothing about. And Maybe clavia designed the rack having in mind that it would be used w. sequencers??

Also, does this exist has hardware: 1 one controller keyboard sending messages on multiple channels?

Hope this is what you mean?
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phiol



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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Again just make sure I get it:

Quote:
On my racks, 2 and 2x, you can select multiple slots - hold down more than one slot at a time - but they will not all sound unless they are on the same midi channel.

ch 1 right. since this is the ch your controller is sending messages on.
Why is that a problem? Is it because a slot will sounds even if not selected (not selected=you don't want to hear!) IF it's on the same ch as another.

Quote:

The manual seems to indicate that there is a special feature where by if you hold down multiple slots they will all respond to the leftmost midi channel.

So, then my logic would tell to simply make sure that my left most slot = ch 1. if it works , it not a biggy Wink but then again there is probably something i'm not getting here!?
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phiol



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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Can anyone think of any operation on the rack that requires you to select multiple channels at once?


yes, when you are sending midi messages out to MaxMSP or a seq(I guess) and you want the Rack knob the controller a parameter. If you want to use this same knob to control something else then, it has to be on another ch. Which will only be activated when the slot is selected . right?

If this is not the reason , then w. (other than sysex dumps) is there a midi out in the 1st place! ?

phiol
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, bussy boys at the other side of the big lake while I'm asleep Very Happy

I think it is just a matter of copy'paste in every version of the Manual.
The NordRack (1) does behave as the Manual claims, all other Leads don't...

When the Midi channels are set to

A=1
B=2
C=3 and
D=4

And Slots A and B are active, Slot B reacts to channel 2 AND channel 1, which is the channel Slot A is using, the leftmost active Slot...

All Slots react to their Midi channel, active or not. Only 'off' will shut the Midi down!

Phiol,

The other thing is about extremities.
The only thing is I can't reproduce the bug anymore...

I have to investigate further.
It isn't a big thing, allthough I still don't know it for sure. Maybe it makes nice rhythmic Arpeggio possible...

Wout
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phiol



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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout now you got me confused.

About the slots and the bug thing.

Slots: If controller keyboard is sending on ch1 how can slot and say slot C is ch1 then slot D would react but not A and B. this should be correct.

Bug: I'm not sure how to test your bug.

* also , did you receive my pm?

phiol
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

phiol wrote:
Wout now you got me confused.
In a way it is...
Quote:
About the slots and the bug thing.
This thread is about the Slot?Midi thing Smile
Quote:
Slots: If controller keyboard is sending on ch1 how can slot and say slot C is ch1 then slot D would react but not A and B. this should be correct.
Well, I think I miss some words here Wink But when Slot A is active and another Slot will become active too, the last Slot will also react to the Midi of Slot A. If A is not active (it mostly is...) but Slot B is active, only Slot C and D will react to Slot B, not A... At least, that's what the Manual says and what the NordLead(1) does. NordLead2 and 2X don't react this way... Msy2 find this disapointing and stange, reading the Manual. So do I in a way. Gladly it wasn't a final text I wrote in the first place.
Quote:
Bug: I'm not sure how to test your bug.
I should leave the bug for a while, because I have to be sure I can reproduce it! Until then it will be a waste of time trying and trying...
Quote:
* also , did you receive my pm?
Yes, I did, but not to much time between teaching to answer, I'm afraid Crying or Very sad

Wout
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phiol



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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks for confirming.

So the solution is to get you piano controller to send on multiple channels.

Easy, w. a computer, don't know how without Confused

msy2. If you are using a computer in your combo, I could write you a little patch in max msp that you could then run in Maxmsp runtime. <- it's free. And then you would have no problems.

I 'll do a little testing on my Rack 2 tonight.

to see f the bug is the same on mine.

phil
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phiol



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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey msy2

So basically after testing this is conclusion.

Basically what you ment was; If all slots are on ch 1 then they should all go out the Headphones output. (this should be even more true if the left most (slot A)on ch1 .

But no, they all go out individually on there respective jack output. <- so to do what you do simply on your keyboard mk1 version , you need a mixer that has all 4 channel routed to the same out. <- this does sort of suck.

But then again having a 16 drum kit <-is still quite a lot. <- But you problaly know better then me you've been doing cool stuff w. the 4 slot thing Wink

cheers

phiol
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Jari



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Layers and MIDI Channels with a Korg X50...

If you use Korg X50 as a Nord Rack 2X controller (as I do) you will be able to send different MIDI Channels at the same time.

On my X50

I have the Global MIDI Channel set to 16 (see the note about this below), and I use a Combi (started over the Init Combination) that I set up as follows...

Page COMBI 2: Ed-TimbreParam

Set the Timbre 1 Status to EXT and MIDI Channel to 1
Set the Timbre 2 Status to EXT and MIDI Channel to 2
Set the Timbre 3 Status to EXT and MIDI Channel to 3
Set the Timbre 4 Status to EXT and MIDI Channel to 4
Set the other Timbres Status to Off and the respective MIDI Channels to Gch

NOTE: If you set the Global Channel to 1, 2, 3 or 4 will always send data over this channel even if you got the Channel 1 set to Off in the Ed-TimberParam Page (can be set from 5 to 16).

On my Nord Rack...

In Program Mode I have set Slot A to Channel 1, and Slot B, C and D Channels to Off (If you don't set the Channels B, C and D to Off the sound will trigger even if the led of the Slot is Off).

Splitting the Keyboard

This way you can easy create Combis with Splitted Keyboard by editing the Key Zones in the X50.

_________________
Korg X50 | Nord Rack 2X | Kurzweil PC2X
RME HDSP 9632 | TAPCO MIX.100 | KRK Rokit 6
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Jari



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Arpeggiator with a Korg X50...

You can use the Arpeggiator of the X50 over the Nord Rack 2X. So you can have two Arps running at the same time.
It's a little tricky because if you set the Arp to shot as if it was a normal voice it will not trigger. So you will need to set up the X50 as follows...

X50

Page COMBI 2: Ed-TimbreParam
Here the important thing is that the voices that are set to Off must be in the Gch as it was said on the previous post.

Page COMBI 7: Ed-Arp/Ctrls (Here comes the trick...)
First of all you will need to set up two of the Channels that are set to Off and Gch to the Arp A and Arp B (this is the trick that will do that all this works). Then select the Arp A or B for the voice 1 and you are done (don't forget to press the ARP button).

Nord Rack 2X

Just set up the sounds that you want.

_________________
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RME HDSP 9632 | TAPCO MIX.100 | KRK Rokit 6
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GavinR



Joined: Mar 30, 2009
Posts: 7
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Is it possible to play different slots of my rack2x at the same time from a sequencer basically using the slots as 4 different instruments???

Slot 1 - midi channel 1
Slot 2 midi channel 2
Slot 3 midi channel 3
Slot 4 midi channel 4

These are saved as a performance.

Sequencer is set up to play with separate patterns to each of the channels on the individual slots.

Outputs are routed as 4 mono outputs.

I can play these separately with no problem but when I try and play them together I can only get one at a time??? It is like one takes over from the other when triggered. Can play them together when I put them on the same channel also.

Am I missing something???

Thanks
gavin
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Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4517
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 12

PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi GavinR

I removed your double posting.

This is indeed the troublesome situation.
It's rather late now, so tomorrow I try to duplicate the set up and see what happens.

Wout
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GavinR



Joined: Mar 30, 2009
Posts: 7
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Wout.
Will check back tmrw.
gavin
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