Chaos

[peripatitis]

In a more philosophical mood it might be interesting to know that chaos in the bibliography is first introduced in Isiodos Theogonia , were instead of it's current 'definition' it was mentioned to describe the total void , the emptiness !
So in that sense it would be funny to confront this people claiming that they work creatively by imposing order to chaos with this definition

There is a very interesting speech from castoriadis 'true and false chaos' :

http://costis.org/x/castoriadis/Castoriadis-Figures_of_the_Thinkable.pdf

in case people don't know him which is quite a big possibility due to the fact that a lot of his work was published under different names , he was the latest Greek philosopher (20th century) and a had a big part in the events of may '68.
The article can be quite difficult if one has no love for philosophy but i think it is quite interesting.

Now in a more practical discussion , one could say that there are two working methods the top-down approach and the bottom-up .
Oversimplifying it one could think of additive synthesis and substractive (ex filtering noise).
In both cases composers who work with these methods can predict the form of the outcome , thus using chaos does not presuppose an non formalistic approach to music.
Perhaps one can not be sure about the actual number in a certain instance for a random generator for example but the abstract form of this is quite predictable.

So i wouldn't say that one can find 'inspiration in chaos ' if he actually has devoted himself to work with these tools.
A lot of people that i met that are for example using fractals or non-linear equations always look for areas of predictability or repeating patterns
and these are the results they use most of the time as control structures.
And this is quite logical since total randomness if possible is quite boring to the ear.

One other issue that i think is somehow related to this discussion is the relation between the complexity of a control structure, derived perhaps from a chaotic equation and a sound event.

A lot of people using chaotic elements in their composition seem to prefer synthesis methods like granular synthesis or additive to impose these control structures on , perhaps this is important in order to communicate , make apparent their form since using the same control on a sample for example might not wield 'perceivable' results.

This limits a lot the sonic result , at least in terms of sonic originality ,but of course this has to do with how ones perceives electronic music.

I am not saying that having an underlying structure is not important , but it does not 'justify' in my view the outcome, which can only be judged
by the listener and hopefully without getting the load of information before hand as it is usual in a lot of electroacoustic gigs.

In the end an intelligent idea is not a work of art, is a work of intellect.
An intelligent musical idea is a different thing.

[chuck]

I think I saw this on Wendy Carlos' website, but it may be from some other source. "Anything that is unpredicable is boring, anything that is predictable is boring... art is inbetween".

Anyone who has been brought up on commerical music expects patterns and repetitions. The first time ones hears most classical or art music the lack of obvious patterns is apparent. In other words the first hearing of Brahms or Stravinsky can seem 'chaotic', as it did many years ago.

So, in a lot of ways, chaos is in the ear of the beholder.

One of the beautiful things about the human mind is its need to find some level of structure. There is much research on this in terms of the mind 'filling in blanks' and playing all kinds of tricks on us just to try to derive some kind of meaning from the data we receive. The intellectual energy of our minds trying to find order in chaos is very stimulating to some.... and irratating to others. As one poster has noted, chaos may have a future as long as something else is going on. (try watching a sporting event on TV with the sound off and Mahler or Stockhausen on... interesting to note what 'connections' the mind comes up with).

What is curious to me is how many compositions one will hear at a electronic music concert where chaos is the only feature of the composition. It seems to me that using chaos as one element of a musical presentation would be far more useful. Something like the tape experiments that the Beatles did with "Sgt. Pepper's".

[mosc]

I have been fascinated by chaos and randomness for many years. Artistically, they are quite different. Randomness has a certain apparent sameness to it, ironically. Chaos is much more interesting.

There are many kinds of chaotic systems. To me, the ones that are most interesting are those that at times sound like repeating patterns and at times break up into what sounds more like randomness, only to return to another repeating pattern. Sometimes these repeating patterns are fascinating because the chaotic system will change them very slightly as they evolve.

These processes are very interesting to me, often more than some composed music. As I get older, these chaotic systems are becoming more interesting than most composed music.

The Lorenz attractor exhibits this to some degree:



At times the path will be like an oscillator looping around and around and then it will apparently suddenly jump to the other side, maybe jumping back and forth or staying there for a while. Anyhow, our minds can absorb the basic character of such a system and appreciate it. It's like looking at a waterfall, or clouds, or flowers - every rose is different, but a rose nonetheless.

Another chaotic system is the orbits for the sun's satellites, most obviously this chaotic nature is observed in the asteroids. For the short term, one can figure out the orbit of an asteroid, but since it moves through a complex field of other asteroids that can deflect it slightly, one can not predict the position of an asteroid very far in the future. This is like predicting the weather. It's like predicting anything in life for that matter, because life itself is so complex - life is certainly a chaotic system.

So, to me using chaotic systems to create music seems very natural and satisfying, and more interesting than say, the blues or other popular musical forms. (Still, there is a bit of that I do ike, and I have played in blues and rock bands. I enjoy playing boogie woogie on the piano.)

To me, composting with chaotic systems is not just finding an interesting one and letting it play forever, but finding it and presenting it to the listener for as long as it sounds interesting (by my own personal standards), then transitioning to something else. A composition can be realized by presenting several of these arranged to play different on instruments that sound good together. Thus, composing with chaotic systems doesn't have to be much different than the process used by Bach, Mozart or Stravinski.

[dewdrop_world]

You can play with a Lorenz attractor here:

http://www.magneticmotorworks.com/chaos/make.html

hjh

[mosc]

And speaking of Mandelbrot, check out these G2 patches that implement some of the equations. http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-13235.html

You don't need a G2 to play these, the G2 demo should work quite well: http://www.clavia.se/products/nordmodular/demo.htm

[Antimon]

For me, there is sometimes a difference between what I like to play and what I like to listen to. It feels nice to practise fast moves on a guitar or keyboard - and listening to yourself while you do it - but it's not always fun to listen to someone else doing the same thing.

When you use random elements you distance yourself a bit from the music generator, and get a bit closer to the audience. You can enjoy the music more like a casual listener sometimes, even though you set the wheels in motion, maybe a bit like a DJ. DJing the cosmos

/Stefan

[brams]

[franzrosati]

since now, i've used a lot of mathematical distributions and attractors to generate parameters (fractals like pink or brownian motion, ikeda attractor or lorenz too).
Now i'm looking for models of population distribution like ants, viruses, insects etc... to apply to my sounds and maybe some visuals

[nic777]

Excellent thread this.
Ive also been using the "random-chaotic-no-rules" composition idea... but it does lack structure.. a track loses it's 'purpose'. But playing in this area of thinking I think will allow us to redefine what the structure of a track is. pull us out of the verse chorus verse bulid up mentality... perhaps a return to the creativity of composition of the classical composers... just with MUCH cooler tools.

[tony]

I take story from puppet shadow from java this a tradisional theather
core of story is universal create buy chaos and absolute ,