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What are all the ADSR's out there to build?
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LetterBeacon



Joined: Mar 18, 2008
Posts: 454
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'd definitely be up for a board if there was a run. With the Cliff sockets where they are too.
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nicolas3141



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 139
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

fonik wrote:
it is not my design and not my decision. it is all up to nicolas. in any case i will order some boards with cliff footprints for me.
take a look at the stripboard layout above. one could do it on stripboard anyway.


I am totally happy for this design to be used in whatever way by anyone who is interested (acknowledgement is always nice of course). I think it's great that matthias is putting the time and effort into designing a pcb and prototyping/tweaking the circuit so that it will work well at normal modular voltages. The interest is encouraging me to tidy up and share more of my modules.

About the pcb so far. I think it would be useful to add some kind of led indication and a separate trigger-in socket. Having thought about it some more I am not so sure that the retrigger-out would do anything musically useful, but trigger-in definitely is needed by some people. And I also find it useful to have momentary pushbuttons available for gate (definitely) and trigger (maybe). Not that everyone needs to add all those things to their versions, but if you are doing a pcb and you have the space it would be nice to add the pads for those options. The circled bits are the kind of thing I am thinking of, but I have not built them into mine yet, so totally untested at this stage.

Cheers,
Nicolas


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rjd2



Joined: Sep 02, 2007
Posts: 235
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

nicolas3141 wrote:

I am totally happy for this design to be used in whatever way by anyone who is interested (acknowledgement is always nice of course).


cool. keep me posted. (of course you should get credit!) if anyone out there is interested in "hosting", i dont mind venture capitalling it, and just getting reimbursed on the back end, assuming a run of 100 or 200 or whatever is within reason. would it make sense to mfctr here in the states, currency-wise? i know that personally, as a US buyer, the euro/gbp conversion is not exactly appealing, but whatever. keep me posted.
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fonik



Joined: Jun 07, 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

okay, i am actually knee deep in the TH SCm sale and the PS3100 docu has to be finished. nevertheless i hope i will have the time to breadboard it the next days. i don't think i would do a PCB run, though. so anyone?
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widdly



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Has anyone tried the 324 envelope on +/-15v?

I'm not getting much joy from it. The release seems to work as an attack and release and it needs a lot of voltage to trigger. I'd be interested if I've made a mistake in my layout or if I need to modify for this voltage.

Last edited by widdly on Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Would you be willing to post your ready-to-etch PCB image online with a BOM (if that's okay with Nicolas as well)?

fonik wrote:
okay, i am actually knee deep in the TH SCm sale and the PS3100 docu has to be finished. nevertheless i hope i will have the time to breadboard it the next days. i don't think i would do a PCB run, though. so anyone?
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fonik



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

numbertalk wrote:
Would you be willing to post your ready-to-etch PCB image online with a BOM (if that's okay with Nicolas as well)?

sure. Very Happy

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LetterBeacon



Joined: Mar 18, 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

nicolas3141 wrote:
The interest is encouraging me to tidy up and share more of my modules.


Please do!
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fonik



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

nicolas, i wonder what the blue LED is for? i would have added a NPN and resistor as LED driver...
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Thanks!

fonik wrote:
numbertalk wrote:
Would you be willing to post your ready-to-etch PCB image online with a BOM (if that's okay with Nicolas as well)?

sure. Very Happy
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fonik



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tonight i breadboarded the circuit and powered it with +/-15VA. that's what i came up with:

i lowered the 33ka resistor in the voltage divider at the neg in of the first OpAmp (comparator) to 10k. this gave me a trigger threshold of approx. 1.5V. Smile

i lowered the 1M resistor in the feedbackpath of the 3rd OpAmp (junction 10nF, diode, 1M to GND...) to 390k, just because this was what i had on hand. it gave me a peak of approx. 9V. Very Happy

i added a NPN and a 1k resistor as driver for a LED (Collector to +V, Base to output of last OpAmp, Emitter to 1K to LED to GND). Wink

a 500ka pot for release gave me a better control. Smile

i normalled the input socket to a 10k/10k voltage divider to allow the LFO mode to work. Smile

i found the LFO mode a little bit strange: sustain pot has to be fully ccw. when release pot is fully ccw the LFO would be gateble, which is very cool. Cool
as soon as the release pot is not ccw the LFO is always on. as soon as i turned up the sustain potentiometer the LFO stopped. Confused

i did not get the external retrigger input to work. Crying or Very sad

experiences, insights or explanations anyone?

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nicolas3141



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

widdly wrote:
I'm not getting much joy from it. The release seems to work as an attack and release and it needs a lot of voltage to trigger. I'd be interested if I've made a mistake in my layout or if I need to modify for this voltage.


Sounds like a problem with the transistor. Check the soldering, etc around that area and check that you have a PNP transistor with collector to ground and emitter to the release pot and base to the opamp via resistor.

Cheers,
Nicolas
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nicolas3141



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

fonik wrote:
nicolas, i wonder what the blue LED is for? i would have added a NPN and resistor as LED driver...


My idea with running both green and blue LEDs was that the green would turn on at a lower voltage and the blue at a higher voltage. Could also be done with multiple green leds by adding diodes or zeners in series with some, but not others. To create a kind of crude bargraph type display. Probably a silly idea, but might be fun.

Cheers,
Nicolas
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nicolas3141



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

fonik wrote:

i found the LFO mode a little bit strange: sustain pot has to be fully ccw. when release pot is fully ccw the LFO would be gateble, which is very cool. Cool
as soon as the release pot is not ccw the LFO is always on. as soon as i turned up the sustain potentiometer the LFO stopped. Confused


Wow matthias, you got that up and running quickly - for someone with lots of other projects on the go. The weather must be wintry where you are Wink Thank you for feeding back your findings so clearly.

Yes the LFO mode is a little strange, but in a fun kind of way. It continues to surprise me as to when it will do what. That is why I must get around to adding an LED to mine to help me keep track of what it is up to.

As you found the LFO behaves fairly normally if you turn the sustain and release right down and then control the up-ramp and down-ramp of the LFO with the attack and decay pots. Like this I think the gate input will stop the LFO when it is high and let it run when low.

If you turn up the sustain and release pots the LFO will not run, but I think it will if the gate is high. And then the down-ramp is mostly controlled by the release rather than the decay pot.

By raising the trigger voltage on the gate input you have also raised he voltage at which the LFO retriggers. So on your one the LFO will be oscillating between 1.5V and 9V. Not a bad thing at all, just a bit different to mine. You could always use two separate voltage dividers for these two functions.

Cheers,
Nicolas
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fonik



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

nicolas3141 wrote:
Wow matthias, you got that up and running quickly - for someone with lots of other projects on the go. The weather must be wintry where you are Wink Thank you for feeding back your findings so clearly.

indeed. you WANT to stay at home, right beside the oven...

Quote:
Yes the LFO mode is a little strange, but in a fun kind of way. It continues to surprise me as to when it will do what.

agreed. and i thought about adding some additional labeling to the front panel, i.e. "gated LFO" to the CCW position of the release pot?!

Quote:
By raising the trigger voltage on the gate input you have also raised he voltage at which the LFO retriggers. So on your one the LFO will be oscillating between 1.5V and 9V. Not a bad thing at all, just a bit different to mine. You could always use two separate voltage dividers for these two functions.

great idea. i will think about it. a 3pole switch could control the LFO mod, voltage divider and even a cap on the output to remove the offset and center the LFO around GND...
EDIT: cap is bad idea. we are talking about DC voltages here, but should i add an additional DualOpAmp for this action?

(EDIT: corrected schematic uploaded)


WoollastonADSR.gif
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Last edited by fonik on Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:01 am; edited 2 times in total
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yusynth



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Matthias

I reckon Q2 is there to drive a LED, isn't it ?

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fonik



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yusynth wrote:
Hi Matthias

I reckon Q2 is there to drive a LED, isn't it ?

true - but where is the LED? Laughing

(EDIT: corrected schematic uploaded - thank you, yves)

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nicolas3141



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

A hot soldering iron will help keep you warm Smile

I don't think a more complex switch would add much. If you wanted to be able to mess about with the DC offset you could, as you suggest, follow this with a DC mixer like Ken Stone's CGS04 - using the invertable inputs would be best. My philosophy is to have lots of very simple modules so I would rather keep the mixer separate in my setup, but everyone has their own approach to this sort of thing.

Cheers,
Nicolas
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yusynth



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Another point is that it would be more accurate to use a FET-OPA for U1D. Therefore I'd suggest to replace the LM324 by a TL074.
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nicolas3141



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yusynth wrote:
I'd suggest to replace the LM324 by a TL074.


Absolutely - in most situations. But in a classroom situation I think it is best to use the ruggedest chips I can find, because they will be subjected to static, overheating, short circuiting, etc. So for me LM348 or LM324 are ideal. Although I have seen a couple of them destroyed recently by power connections the wrong way round.

I have had some success with biasing an LM324 to greatly reduce the inaccuracy due to input current (see below), but the resistor values probably need to be tweaked chip to chip.


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Last edited by nicolas3141 on Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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nicolas3141



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for uploading the redrawn schematic matthias, it makes it so much easier to discuss when we have a drawing with refdeses. I must do better drawings myself.
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fonik



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

nicolas3141 wrote:
I don't think a more complex switch would add much. If you wanted to be able to mess about with the DC offset you could, as you suggest, follow this with a DC mixer like Ken Stone's CGS04 - using the invertable inputs would be best. My philosophy is to have lots of very simple modules so I would rather keep the mixer separate in my setup, but everyone has their own approach to this sort of thing.

actually this is my point of view, too. for such jobs i use one of my voltage processor, i.e. my Attenuverting Mixer. Very Happy

Quote:
Thanks for uploading the redrawn schematic matthias, it makes it so much easier to discuss when we have a drawing with refdeses. I must do better drawings myself.

hey, your drawing is actually much better than mine. better readability, neat and clear. i just have to do it in eagle for the PCB layouts...

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fluxmonkey



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:
This is fantastic. Why isn't everyone jumping up and down about it?

Ian


i'm with Ian, thanks very much for posting this. but even more fantastic, IMHO, is watching the collaborative creation process as folks start testing an refining the initial idea. we've seen it here before wit things like the Klee, it is really inspiring. very grateful to be a small part of this community.

any chance of modifying that stripboard layout with the new improvements?

b

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nicolas3141



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bbob wrote:
any chance of modifying that stripboard layout with the new improvements?


So far, nothing really significant has changed, just the values of a couple of resistors, plus an LED has been added which you would probably want on the front panel rather than the stripboard anyway Smile If you're building this with the stripboard layout above you will need to follow the schematic to find out what is missing - because all the missing stuff is hanging off the back of the front panel pots, sockets, switches. I know some people consider this type of construction terribly messy, but its currently my preferred way of doing it because its quick and easy (for small simple modules anyway) and also easy to continue modifying.

Cheers,
Nicolas
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nicolas3141



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think one of the things that makes the DX7 so amazing is not the FM so much as the envelopes. Separate complex envelopes available for modulating just about everything. Even though this ADSR is not as sophisticated, it is simple enough that you can easily have several of them in your synth. But then the cost of the pots starts to add up and if you are mostly using them in LFO mode, two of the pots are not really getting used. So here is a variation that gives you an ASR envelope. It is still 4 stage, but the decay and release rates are controlled by the same pot. I think there was a commercial synth with envelopes like this, but I can't remember which one. This version is also good if you are short of front panel real estate. If your pots aren't PCB mounted, the same PCB can do both versions because the difference in the circuit is so small (circled in red).

Cheers,
Nicolas


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