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audible
Joined: Jun 03, 2007 Posts: 9 Location: BCN08036
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blue hell
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Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24075 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
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Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:12 pm Post subject:
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audible.
I can't patch right now ... hope to think on it later ... when nothing happens here please remind me in a few days.
It should take a couple of multiplexers and demultiplexers and some adding of constants to a random signal and a modulo circuit, or something like that. Might get out of control for large N ... in terms of resource usage ... _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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blue hell
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Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24075 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
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ian-s
Joined: Apr 01, 2004 Posts: 2669 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:04 pm Post subject:
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Do the connections need to be 1:1 exclusive? |
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blue hell
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Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24075 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
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Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:08 pm Post subject:
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g2ian wrote: | Do the connections need to be 1:1 exclusive? |
That's what I assumed, I broke my head on exclusion stuff _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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iPassenger
Joined: Jan 27, 2007 Posts: 1067 Location: Sheffield, UK
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Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:56 am Post subject:
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It does seem that the exclusivity is the problem (it forces the need for increased control over the random element), unless you can find a way that doesn't use MUXs at all?
Seems a lot more difficult than you might imagine. _________________ iP (Ross)
- http://ipassenger.bandcamp.com
- http://soundcloud.com/ipassenger |
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Antimon
Joined: Jan 18, 2005 Posts: 4145 Location: Sweden
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Antimon
Joined: Jan 18, 2005 Posts: 4145 Location: Sweden
Audio files: 371
G2 patch files: 100
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Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:34 am Post subject:
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OK, I updated the patch to shuffle 8 inputs, and attached a little sketch showing the principle. Note that although in the new patch (the old was a little buggy) e.g. input 1 may be routed to any output, there is a greater chance that it will be routed to output 1 or 2, since there are more paths to those outputs than the others. Maybe the switching can be tweaked so the spread is more even?
As can be seen in the sketch, only three columns are needed for six inputs, and two columns for four inputs. Also note that I only used the muxes here to show the values visually, when using this replace the constant modules with input, and the muxes with output.
Still a little bit cheaper than Jan's version on the cycle side, I think, although bigger and consuming more memory. Another downside is that I don't know how to reshuffle without having a short moment where all inputs are routed directly to the outputs (random triggers only stay up as long as there is a live value at the Clk input).
This is fun!
/Stefan
Description: |
Switch illustrations: 8 to 8, 6 to 6 and 4 to 4 |
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This image has been reduced to fit the page. Click on it to enlarge. |
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sbt_shufflepatch_8.pch2 |
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_________________ Antimon's Window
@soundcloud @Flattr home - you can't explain music Last edited by Antimon on Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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blue hell
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Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24075 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
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Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:18 pm Post subject:
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Antimon wrote: | This is fun! |
Maddening _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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3phase
Joined: Jul 27, 2004 Posts: 1183 Location: Berlin
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24075 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 277
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Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:24 am Post subject:
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A bit late, but looking at some notes still laying on my desk I came to realize that this actually is equivalent to a basic programming exercise ... how to place eight queens on a chess board in such a way that they can't capture each other.
Usually this is solved using (recursive) backtracking, i.e try something and when it fails roll back and try something else, repeat until completed or failed.
There is a straightforward solution as well, pick any crossing you'd like to start with and then move 2 steps either horizontal or vertical followed by one step vertical or horizontal, in chess terms: the way the knight moves.
Not that this brings a solution in the form an actual patch any closer, but thought it to be interesting nevertheless.
Alse see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_queens_puzzle _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Falk
Joined: Mar 07, 2006 Posts: 75 Location: Sweden
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Antimon
Joined: Jan 18, 2005 Posts: 4145 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:41 am Post subject:
Re: Better version Subject description: Lower CPU and memory usage for permutation of 8 signals |
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Falk wrote: | Hello audible and everyone.
I took Antimons patch and optimized it a bit.
I knew that computer science degree would come in handy some day
/Falk |
Clever! I keep forgetting about the usefulness of the inverter.
Value Switch 2-1: D'oh! I should try to learn about all of the modules.
Thanks.
/Stefan _________________ Antimon's Window
@soundcloud @Flattr home - you can't explain music |
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audible
Joined: Jun 03, 2007 Posts: 9 Location: BCN08036
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Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 2:34 pm Post subject:
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Thanks for all the answers, I thought this would be easier...
Though a couple of the previous patches seem to work with what I was planning, I fail to fully understand any of them... As stated above, I'm a noob but I hope someone else might find all this useful and worth of study.
It's great to provide a good source of head-scratching to you all... |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24075 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
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Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 2:38 pm Post subject:
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audible wrote: | It's great to provide a good source of head-scratching to you all... |
got any more of those ? _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Falk
Joined: Mar 07, 2006 Posts: 75 Location: Sweden
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24075 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 277
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Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:02 pm Post subject:
Re: New try, and this a puzzler |
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Falk wrote: | You can always ponder the use of the NOR gate in this patch. |
I'm afraid I could use a little help
It seems to work, and it seems to work by using a counter who's value is shifted around, and so the values will be unique, and then my breathing stops and my head spins and I have to start all over again.
The NOR makes for an oscillator that can be started and stopped at will, but how does it interact ... _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Falk
Joined: Mar 07, 2006 Posts: 75 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:54 am Post subject:
Re: New try, and this a puzzler |
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Blue Hell wrote: |
I'm afraid I could use a little help
It seems to work, and it seems to work by using a counter who's value is shifted around, and so the values will be unique, and then my breathing stops and my head spins and I have to start all over again.
The NOR makes for an oscillator that can be started and stopped at will, but how does it interact ... |
Hello Blue.
For things to work correctly with all this shifting, feedback and S&H I needed 3 rising flanks in one clock cycle.
Clock, inverted clock and the deep magic, the NOR gate with feedback.
Are you traveling on the path of enlightenment yet?
/Falk
PS. Once I get home from work I'll post a more verbose explanation. DS |
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blue hell
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Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24075 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 277
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:36 am Post subject:
Re: New try, and this a puzzler |
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Falk wrote: | Are you traveling on the path of enlightenment yet?
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Only in the sense that I can see where the number 3 comes from, not what it is good for
It would maybe help when I wouldn't be supposed to be working _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Falk
Joined: Mar 07, 2006 Posts: 75 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:51 am Post subject:
Re: New try, and this a puzzler |
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Blue Hell wrote: | Falk wrote: | Are you traveling on the path of enlightenment yet?
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Only in the sense that I can see where the number 3 comes from, not what it is good for
It would maybe help when I wouldn't be supposed to be working |
Hello Blue.
I have added a manually clocked version that shows what is in the shift registers without having to sample it. As is, it doesn't perform any mixing operations.
Once you understand how the injector and the shuffle works, move the connector from the Seed input of the Mix Source and insert it into the empty socket on the AND gate.
Add a new module and remove it again to ensure that the patch is recompiled and then see how the random signal affects the shift registers.
Now, the NOR gate. As I said, this patch needs three rising flanks during each clock cycle. They need to be in a specific order and they must not be simultaneous.
First the injector and the shift registers needs to be clocked. Then the Mix Source needs to be clocked. Thirdly the S&H 1-2 and S&H 3-8 needs to be triggered.
Because we do not know how the Clavia patch compiler splits the signal/logic workload in 4 pieces it is possible that piece 1 use an output from piece 2, piece 2 change its output and piece 3 use the 'same' output from piece 2 but now piece 1 and 3 have different opinions on what that value is even though it looks like the same wire on screen.
The magic of the NOR gate is that when the input is high/true the output is low/false. When the input goes low, the output starts to oscillate at 12 kHz. This is due to the feedback from the output to the other input. Because of the feedback, it doesn't start until the next 24 kHz clock cycle.
Thus, 3 rising flanks from one clock, the clock itself, the inverted clock and the NOR gate that produces a 12 kHz clock burst one 24 kHz clock cycle after the inverted clock.
The S&H modules doesn't care if they are triggered multiple times as long as the pulse train stops before the input changes its value.
That wasn't so hard was it?
Oh, I have also managed to remove 2 modules from the Injector
The picure hopefully helps to visualize the mixing of the shift registers.
/Falk
Description: |
An illustration of how the random mixing works |
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2.77 KB |
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A manually clocked Shift&Mix 8-in/8-out shuffle with shift registers |
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DemoShuffleMix8.pch2 |
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1.71 KB |
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Falk
Joined: Mar 07, 2006 Posts: 75 Location: Sweden
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24075 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:33 am Post subject:
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Sorry for not having found time yet to go on with/into this - got some time consuming other things.
I saw this was posted as a building block - it seemed appropriate to link it from here : http://electro-music.com/forum/post-124787.html _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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